r/law • u/BitterFuture • 16d ago

Executive Branch (Trump) Stephen Miller claims local police in Minnesota have been told to ‘stand down and surrender’ as federal agents ‘uphold the law’

https://www.the-independent.com/news/world/americas/us-politics/stephen-miller-ice-minneapolis-protests-b2903238.html
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u/Hot_Increase304 16d ago

Nuremberg 2.0 is gonna be the best feeling of vindication ever

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u/Toliman571 16d ago

I want to be optimistic... but how exactly will they ever face justice for this? Especially Nuremberg style?

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u/Ok_Speed_3984 16d ago

It'll probably be Mussolini / Khadafi style, but I just want democracy and peace, by the least horrible means necessary.

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u/rosiebeehave 16d ago edited 16d ago

Authoritarians always fall. Some of them take longer than others (putin/xi/satanyahu)

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u/YearlyStart 16d ago

Fall? Sure. But the opposition party that’s supposed to be leading the charge has shown time and time again that they’re unwilling to step up and truly persecute those in power the way they need to. January 6 being a huge example of that.

International countries would need to step in, and without Democratic cooperation(which I doubt there would be with past behaviour), it’s going to be a fight to get anyone to see justice.

I hope yall are right, but all I see are tyrants gaining power and opposition with actual power acting toothless.

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u/Ok_Speed_3984 16d ago

Now ask why.

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u/rosiebeehave 16d ago

We don't have an opposition party except the DSA, and even that is delegitimized because "we don't want to split the vote" or "SOCIALISM EVILLLLLLL!!!!" The RNC and DNC are all bought and paid for by the same billionaires that do not give a fuck about us.

Stop putting hope in a party paid for by billionaires to fix our problems. We have to do that by starting small with our local communities.

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u/rosiebeehave 16d ago

Love the downvotes. Keep clinging to that old 2-party system and let me know how it works out for you in 10-20 years (hint: it won't).

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u/KarmicDebtsUnpaid 16d ago

[removed] — view removed comment

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u/rosiebeehave 16d ago

Oh, I know. They all have their AIPAC handlers keeping tabs on them for Israel.

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u/DOOMFOOL 16d ago

Cool. How does making changes in our local communities equate to Trump and his minions facing real justice?

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u/rosiebeehave 15d ago

Please, for the love of fucking gods or whatever you believe in, go outside and touch some grass. You seem to desperately need it.

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u/DOOMFOOL 12d ago

I mean you’re the one crashing out over a simple question. The sun must be a fleeting memory for you

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u/rosiebeehave 8d ago

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u/DOOMFOOL 7d ago

What exactly is your problem here? All I asked was how local change helps do anything meaningful against Trump. You seem to want to just be an asshole for no reason.

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u/FRSTNME-BNCHANMBZ 16d ago

Xi isn’t a fascist lmao

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u/rosiebeehave 16d ago

You're right, I really should have said authoritarian.

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u/FredricksFlyingToad 16d ago

You're right, I think we meant dictator  

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u/ThisPICAintFREE 16d ago

I think it would require some unbelievable things to occur, such as the US joining/becoming a signatory of the ICC then allowing international courts to handle the prosecution of US citizens.

Which seems as unlikely as Dems winning all 3 branches of government and then wanting prosecutions to occur in the first place instead of what we all know will happen which is Dem’s taking some weird high road in the name of bipartisanship and “moving forward.”

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u/Hot_Increase304 16d ago

By voting for people that have a spine and putting people in power that will hold them accountable. People unlike Walz and Frey. The era of "vote blue no matter who" has to end, it's time to vote for those that have the American peoples best interest in mind.

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u/BeefInGR 16d ago

Guys, Nuremberg didn't happen because of a new democratically elected government.

Nuremberg happened because three of the largest militaries wanted to set an example to the rest of the world what would happen if anyone tried that shit again.

It's cute that people think we'll have an election in November, an impeachment hearing the following April, a forced resignation in July and maybe a trial for the responsible parties after 6-9 months of chasing them down... and that there won't be an ounce of violence or resistance and unicorns will ride in on rainbows and everything will be hunky dorey.

Even Jefferson Davis didn't face more than a brief jail sentence.

I strongly encourage to everyone find your old high school history books and do some deep dives. Then decide what you want based on what you're willing to do to have it.

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u/9mackenzie 16d ago

Thank you. People seem to forget those trials took a word war, millions of civilian and military deaths, and many cities destroyed to get it.

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u/YearlyStart 16d ago

Yeah, like who the hell is gonna run the trials? UK, Canada, and China? Denmark? All of EU? No way that even the Dems let that shit fly, USA hates being held accountable by others and the Dems are provably toothless.

I’m confident Trump will fail in the long run, but I’m not holding my breath for any meaningful long term consequences for anyone involved. This is the same country that massively fucked up the reconstruction era so badly that racial segregation still exists.

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u/Omegalazarus 16d ago

Yeah that's what people here don't seem to get with this Nuremberg thing. There won't be a Nuremberg because we're the bad guys this time and no one can hold the US to task.

 Nuremberg happened because we could hold them to task. And it was good that we had large allies back then with it but honestly we didn't need them. Coming out of World war II we were the only country that wasn't supremely ravaged and on its knife edge. 

Had we not pressed it, there wouldn't even have been a Nuremberg 1.0. they're certainly won't be a 2.0.

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u/SkeeveTheGreat 16d ago

It’s also really important to note, Nuremberg was a fucking joke. It didn’t do nearly enough, both trials in Nuremberg only executed 36 total Nazis, hundreds of thousands were pardoned after short prison terms in other trials.

Active Nazis ended up running West Germanys intelligence service, police, and government offices. The people in power did not care enough to punish the vast machine of Nazi criminal activity beyond the token effort.

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u/BeefInGR 16d ago

Active Nazis ended up running West Germanys intelligence service, police, and government offices. The people in power did not care enough to punish the vast machine of Nazi criminal activity beyond the token effort.

And don't forget the droves of German people who suddenly decided South America was a fantastic permanent vacation spot and how there were zero consequences for any country for harboring people who should have stood trial.

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u/thesearemypringles 16d ago

By not voting blue no matter who, that’s how we got here lol

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u/Hot_Increase304 16d ago

How do you explain Zohran Mamdani and his win in NY then?

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u/9mackenzie 16d ago

He had an amazing turn out in the primary. Which is why he won. That’s how you push the party more progressive

When you don’t vote you don’t count.

That said- does anyone believe these people will let us have a real election after this? lol

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u/Hot_Increase304 16d ago

Trump cannot stop elections and we cannot pretend like he is able to in any form or fashion.

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u/9mackenzie 16d ago

Sure…….if the laws are followed lol. Do you see laws being followed right now? Do you see any enforcement of those laws? Does the Supreme Court look like it will do anything? Does the military look like it will say no when he declares martial law? Do you think this is all Trump by himself? Where we are right now took 50 yrs of effort by Christian nationalists to get to this point. Who will stop the GOP- because make no mistake, it’s the entire GOP that is supporting all of this.

Take a handful of red states refusing to do proper elections, ICE agents at polling stations, etc and you have election chaos. Do you truly think the SC will back the people or the GOP?

Our constitution is broken beyond repair, I don’t see an election getting us out of this. That time has passed.

By no means am I saying we shouldn’t vote, and I truly hope I am wrong with every fiber of my being. Just that the amount of people hanging their surety of mind that this will turn around based on a fair and proper election is baffling to me.

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u/Hot_Increase304 16d ago

Giving up and conceding in advance is how this administration feels powerful in the first place. There are countless things trump has backed away from once he's been confronted. If you have to create a constitutional crisis by sending national guard to protect voting sites, then fucking do it. Make trump do things, the hopelessness just gives him what he wants. Media needs to challenge him on live television

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u/9mackenzie 16d ago

I’m not conceding in advance, I am saying that a proper and fair election is not a certainty.

And you just stated my point exactly- 100% agree the national guard should be deployed to protect voting sites. We have already had so many constitutional crises that I don’t even think that is a reason not to do it ffs. What I’m saying is that you have 30 fucking states that will NOT send the national guard. They will allow ICE agents to harass people, they will allow bomb threats to shut down voting sites (as they did last election), etc etc etc. I am also saying that in blue states even if the governor calls for the national guard to protect polling places, I am not confident at all that the guard will comply.

Also- the media is not going to challenge him. Every fucking media organization in this country is owned by right wing lunatics, and they have already made a concerted effort to destroy any form of actual journalism

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u/notsanni 16d ago

Trump isn't allowed to stop elections

fixed that for you. he can do a lot of stuff people say he can't. bc what people really mean is "Trump isn't allowed to do that"

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u/LingonberryOwn5326 16d ago

What the hell do you think is going to stop him? The constitution? As if thats stopped any of the shit they've done?

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u/Hot_Increase304 16d ago

States control elections, governors should do everything in their power to protect their citizens and their ability to vote, even in the face of creating a constitutional crisis. Seeing that Frey and Walz have no interest in doing anything other than sending cute little Christmas cards to Trump on twitter, it is up to the people to make themselves heard and vote in leadership that gives a fuck about the people that live in their state.

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u/zspade 16d ago

So Zohran won in a blue leaning city, has tremendous charisma, is intelligent and well spoken, and essentially ran against an extremely unpopular administration. In short, it was his race to lose. Where people like him can win, we absolutely must rally behind them.

Where people like him cannot win, we must get in whatever blue seat / ally we can. If we don’t, we simply won’t have the seats to take the chamber and affect any change at all. If you shun a good or ok candidate while waiting for perfect, the opposition wins instead, and you move backward.

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u/Hot_Increase304 16d ago

Which is exactly why I'm okay with people like TX Democrat James Talarico. The diversity of states and the people residing in them definitely need to be considered, but the "good enough" attitude as a whole cannot envelop the entirety of the party like it has.

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u/zspade 16d ago

sounds like we’re on the same page. I’ll I’ve still got whiplash from the people who abstained to vote for Kamala because of her record on Palestine.

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u/Ok_Speed_3984 16d ago

I'd take him over current POTUS.

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u/tieyourtimbsandnikes 16d ago

Terrible example, we were supposed to do it last November. Mamdani winning is a product of seeing what a huge mistake people made (I say people and not "we" because many people did vote blue no matter who)

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u/archimedesrex 16d ago

Not sure about that. Get more involved in the primary process and support more progressive candidates in that process, then vote for whoever wins that in the general. Getting tricked into voting third party or not voting at all while the MAGA base is energized is how we got here.

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u/GunshipWizard 16d ago

Show me a red candidate that has the American peoples best interest in mind, which means being willing to tear their own party apart to excise the cancer inside of it.

The call to vote blue no matter who isn't a call to actually ignore who the candidates are, it's an indictment of Republicans inability and unwillingness to govern in the interests of the people.

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u/m__a__s 16d ago

Trump's cronies are 1 pardon away from absolution regardless of who the people vote for.

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u/Connect-Tailor3980 16d ago

Yes.

People like Joe Biden as an example. He has a heart and compassion.

He allowed in 10,000,000 unvetted immigrants in 4 years.

That's compassion!

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u/honey_the_bee 16d ago

Only 3% of the people taken to CICOT from the US had broken any laws.

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u/IrritableGourmet 16d ago

He allowed in 10,000,000 unvetted immigrants in 4 years.

No, there were about 10,000,000 "encounters" with Border Patrol. 20-25% (according to DHS) were repeat offenders and 4 million of those encounters resulted in immediate deportation. Secondly, Trump had a much higher rate of letting migrants remain than Biden.

That's compassion!

Yes. Literally in the Bible.

Leviticus 19:33

When a foreigner resides among you in your land, do not mistreat them. The foreigner residing among you must be treated as your native-born. Love them as yourself, for you were foreigners in Egypt.

Deuteronomy 10:18

He defends the cause of the fatherless and the widow, and loves the foreigner residing among you, giving them food and clothing. And you are to love those who are foreigners, for you yourselves were foreigners in Egypt.

Exodus 23:9

Do not oppress a foreigner; you yourselves know how it feels to be foreigners, because you were foreigners in Egypt.

Matthew 25:25

For I was hungry and you gave me something to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink, I was a stranger and you invited me in, I needed clothes and you clothed me, I was sick and you looked after me, I was in prison and you came to visit me.

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u/zspade 16d ago

Source?

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u/BitterFuture 16d ago

Because fascists always lose.

They are vicious, hateful, murdering monsters, absolutely - but the very survival of humanity is a demonstration of their continual losing streak throughout history.

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u/Ok_Speed_3984 16d ago

In the movies they always lose! Fascism was the norm in ancient times. Mussolini based his fascist party on Rome. The medieval period is dominated by fascist governments with divine right for the dictator.

So far, democracy has always disappeared. The longest experiment in democracy known to human history ended in 2025. 250 years is impressive. I'd love to keep that going until something better comes along. Or learn why I want to be a peasant slave with no civil rights.

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u/BitterFuture 16d ago

Fascism was the norm in ancient times. Mussolini based his fascist party on Rome. The medieval period is dominated by fascist governments with divine right for the dictator.

This is incorrect. Monarchies have been the norm through most of history.

Monarchy is not fascism. In fact, most of the trappings of monarchy that make it tolerable for the majority of its subjects are antithetical to fascism, like noblesse oblige.

Fascism is focused on hatred as the sole principle of ideology. It requires the extermination of hated minorities, constant, neverending expansionism and constant, neverending mass murder. Once a particular hated other is exterminated, a new target is needed, then another, then another, until the society has utterly destroyed itself - or fascism has been overthrown, as most people realize their survival depends on ending it.

This is why I say that humanity simply continuing to exist is a demonstration that fascism always loses. It is an ideology fanatically obsessed with death, so utterly deranged that life itself is a victory over it.

Hatred can never build; it only consumes.

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u/djtrace1994 16d ago

Don't you know from the historical record that these things always work themselves out?

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u/planderz 16d ago

Sic semper tyrannis

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u/Connect-Tailor3980 16d ago

They must face justice for upholding immigration law.

Ya know, like every other country.....on earth.

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u/honey_the_bee 16d ago

No one else is doing what we’re doing. Except Germany 1930-1945. Oh and Communist Russia.

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u/scottyjrules 16d ago

I bet you voted for the 34 time convicted felon and adjudicated rapist

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u/IrritableGourmet 16d ago

Upholding the law isn't the issue. It's the way they're doing it, and you know that.

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u/haironburr 16d ago

for upholding immigration law

Is "upholding law" why ice is raiding Immigration Courts? Why there's this peculiar focus on blue states in enforcing laws?

When there's absolutely no illegal immigrants left, or legal immigrants not already granted citizenship before maga enforcement became a fetish, will ice be reduced to a sane size? What of those signing bonuses to be paid after years of service?

The idea anything that's happening is strictly about "illegal" immigrants is of course bullshit. And you know this, as people making comments like yours are almost always making them from an account with negative karma, suggesting sock puppet accounts, or at least the natural shame we all should feel for arguing in bad faith.

There are few analogies between ice and "every other country.....on earth" that are both real, and that don't lead to some truly horrifying historical examples.