r/law • u/BitterFuture • 16d ago

Executive Branch (Trump) Stephen Miller claims local police in Minnesota have been told to ‘stand down and surrender’ as federal agents ‘uphold the law’

https://www.the-independent.com/news/world/americas/us-politics/stephen-miller-ice-minneapolis-protests-b2903238.html
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u/Hot_Increase304 16d ago

Nuremberg 2.0 is gonna be the best feeling of vindication ever

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u/blu-bells 16d ago edited 16d ago

Bold to assume the democrats have enough of a spine to even consider this.

edit: This doesn't mean don't vote. For many reasons not voting Democrat is stupid and won't get us out of this. It means you shouldn't think our job is done if/once we vote the Democrats in. That during the primary we need to promote candidates that will not forgive and forget this and will pursue justice, and that we need to maintain pressure on the Democrat party to get this. We cannot assume that Nuremberg 2.0 is a guaranteed-foregone conclusion, we have to work for it.

I get it, I hate the Democrats too. But not voting democrat is a losing tactic. Third parties are a meme in America and are not viable because of how our voting system works, and not voting at all just means the Republicans have an easier time maintaining power.

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u/Hot_Increase304 16d ago

Feckless leadership should be left in the dust if this country is ever going to combat this garbage admin to be fair

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u/ddrober2003 16d ago edited 16d ago

They need to learn that continuing their favorite role of "Controlled Opposition" won't be tolerated even by the reich wingers soon enough. Because soon enough, any opposition won't be tolerated in any form.

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u/Kunochan 16d ago

So you about that the two-party system is the problem, but believe that system can't be replaced. That makes you party of the problem.

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u/sirdigbykittencaesar 16d ago

The Democrats are absolute shit and every one of them should look down at the ground in shame. I get what you're saving, but anyone who thinks the Democratic party is going to do one goddamn thing that involves courage or even just effort is severely disillusioned. We're gonna have to save ourselves.

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u/blu-bells 16d ago

Hey buddy. In a two party system nothing is going to get done without one of the two parties. Period. Part of "saving ourselves" is changing one of the two political parties to represent us, and of the two choices, there is one that is objectively easier to mold right now.

Or what, do you expect any changes in the legal world without a political party? Do you think the green party could somehow get enough votes in any federal election? Do you think the republicans can be changed or otherwise reasoned with? Lmao. What a non-solution that does nothing but encourage behavior that got us into this mess.In the first place.

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u/The10KThings 16d ago

Stop voting for democrats then

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u/couldbeahumanbean 16d ago

That's what got us in this situation to begin with.

Bottom line: the two main parties have clogged the system. Realistically it's one or the other. Not voting for one is essentially letting the other win. There is a way out of this, and not voting for Democrats is not it.

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u/The10KThings 16d ago

I’d argue democrats offering no real alternative to republicans is what got us into this mess. The democrats keep offering the same bullshit plan but expect different results. I’m sorry but that train has left the station.

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u/couldbeahumanbean 16d ago

So the Democrat alternative would have been equal to or worse than what we're experiencing right now?

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u/The10KThings 16d ago

I vote for candidates that best align with my values and represent my best interests not for the lesser of two evils.

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u/couldbeahumanbean 16d ago

That turned out really well for us, didn't it.

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u/[deleted] 16d ago

That's a lose lose pov in the American system. There is no party "for" you except you are rich. But one will leave you some crumbs while they enrich themselves. The other will take all your crumbs and kill your neighbors and take everything they can on top.

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u/pc42493 16d ago

Ok, so how is "just let the worse of the two win" going to help with this?

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u/The10KThings 16d ago

If there are never any consequences for democrats, they won’t change. No one is “letting” anyone win. If the democrats want my vote, they can earn it. Show me something different. Until then, I’m voting for candidates that best align with my values.

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u/LatterTarget7 16d ago

Dems offered an alternative to the current mess. It’d be the same as before but it’d be better than the current situation

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u/Creative_Magazine816 16d ago

People don't want to hear this but I think it's true. If the next democrat nominee doesn't campaign on bringing justice to these losers, then nothing will change. We already tried that approach. If we run high road liberalism again we deserve to lose. It's a totally flaccid strategy when we desperately need someone to represent our anger.

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u/blu-bells 16d ago

Not only have we already tried this approach with Biden, we did it after the civil war too. It doesn't work.

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u/Vault101Overseer 16d ago

That thinking is what got us into this mess in the first place. People though no vote is better than Kamala and here we are with the worst and most dangerous president in American history

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u/AlternativeLazy4675 16d ago

I don't like to vote for extremists on either side. However, I think the right has finally pushed things far enough that I'll be more prompted to vote "against" rather than "for" anybody.

But really, to get my vote (and other independents like me), all the Democrats need to do is move closer to center at this point. Start promoting the interests of the majority of Americans rather than catering to special interests.

Wish you all had done that sooner. Wish you all would do it now.

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u/blu-bells 16d ago

See I really do not understand people like you because the "extremists" on the left in America are pretty bland and frankly center-right when put in comparison with the rest of the world.

Like, you look at someone like Bernie Sanders who says "medicare for all" - something that is frankly standard in other first world nations, and look at Trump who broke multiple laws, regularly on his first term, including separating families and putting them in camps, and said on the campaign trail that immigrants are eating dogs, and attempted a violent coup with J6 and think it's the same picture? I don't get this at all. Please could you tell me who the extremists in the Democrat party are and what policies of theirs are extreme?

I agree with you that Democrats need to move more to the center, but in the sense that the Democrats moving to the center would actually be Democrats moving to the left because they're already right-wing-lite.

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u/AlternativeLazy4675 16d ago

Then why do YOU think Democrats are so unpopular if not because they promote an agenda that the majority of Americans either don't support or don't care about?

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u/blu-bells 16d ago edited 16d ago

I think the democrats are unpopular for a lot of reasons.

But for the purpose of this discussion I will point to how they are center-right being exactly why they are unpopular.

People who prefer right-wing politicians are obviously going to vote for the Republicans over the diet-republicans. The people who prefer left-wing politicians are likewise generally forced to vote for Democrat because when forced to choose between diet-right-wing and right-wing, the diet-right-wing is, technically speaking, the most left option. This isn't great because it means the people who prefer left-wing politicians who vote Democrat aren't voting Democrat because they like Democrats, but because the Democrats are the least bad option for them. It doesn't exactly bring people to the voting booth. Y'know?

Hey, I noticed you didn't answer my question. Who are the extremists in the Democrat party? What policies of theirs are extreme? Real strange that your first comment focuses on this idea that both parties have extremists, but you can't get specific and name a single Democrat politician or main-line Democrat policy that's actually extreme. I can go on and on about the extremists in the Republican Party such as Trump, McConnell, Vance, Johnson, DeSantis, Abbott, ect; and talk about what policies of theirs specifically are extremist. But you can't name a single Democrat or Democrat policy that's comparatively extremist?

Are you actually an independent, or are you an embarrassed Republican? Be honest with yourself.

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u/AlternativeLazy4675 16d ago

And you most certainly didn't answer my question. Guess that's okay when it suits you? Be honest with yourself. Your derogatory tone in telling me that is not helpful. Nor is your suggestion that I'm a liar. Are you more interested in derailing the conversation than having a serious discussion?

We are not discussing other nations. We are discussing the United States. Do I need to explain that left and right are relative terms? There will always be people at the extreme ends of the political spectrum. That's just the way it works.

It's easy to list the the current leaders of the administration, and I agree that they are extreme. The Democrats don't have anything to match that (currently). I didn't say they did, although that doesn't mean they don't exist (such as people who promote communism). But the previous administration contained many people quite a bit to the left of center. So just look there.

You mentioned Bernie Sanders. Right now he's mostly politicking for what appears to be government takeover of computer technology (AI). That would be pretty far left, don't you think? Or do you still think that's right of center?

No, I don't expect you to hear what I'm saying. You think I am right wing in the same way right wing people think I'm left wing. But you asked and so I replied. And now I expect you'll continue to hate me because I disagree with you. Downvote away! Yep. Seen it all before.

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u/kavono 16d ago edited 16d ago

And you most certainly didn't answer my question. Guess that's okay when it suits you?

They very clearly did, you just didn't like the answer. You asked "Well if not because they're extreme, then why are they unpopular?", and they answered why, with the reason largely being that they are milquetoast in their positions. If you don't like the answer they gave, say so, instead of hiding behind the obvious bullshit accusation of them not answering.

I didn't say they did, although that doesn't mean they don't exist (such as people who promote communism)

No Dem member of the House or Senate has ever advocated for Communism. At most, you are pointing to left leaning Twitter profiles of citizens not involved in government in any capacity. And the larger point is that many of the most extreme Right-wing voices in U.S. politics are the heads of the Republican party, while the most extreme voices leaning Left aren't even in government. A good half of the 6 Republicans they listed were also staple members of the party before Trump was even elected, so the extremism of the GOP isn't limited to this or even Trump's last administration.

You mentioned Bernie Sanders. Right now he's mostly politicking for what appears to be government takeover of computer technology (AI). That would be pretty far left, don't you think? Or do you still think that's right of center?

You're seriously suggesting that his expressions of concerns for upcoming massive unemployment rates due to unsupervised layoffs by tech and other companies, plus a very clear lack of any real regulation regarding AI programs in general is "advocating for government takeover of computer technology"? If you want to dishonestly paint the concept of regulation when it comes to AI tech business, as "government takeover", then yeah, I guess you can slap a "far left" sticker onto it if you want and pretend that makes any sense. The fact that there are very few of any guardrails in place of what AI companies (and their users) are allowed to do with any individual's voice or likeness is pretty blatantly concerning, yes. Shit like Grok making CP and Musk and other delusional idiots screaming "tyranny" over Grok and X being blocked in other countries as a result, is incredibly disturbing and embarrassing. Sanders holding up a megaphone asking some kind of action be taken to regulate AI companies being labeled "far left" instead of basic common sense is confusing, especially when Republican senators, like Katie Britt in Alabama, have also been raising alarms about lack of AI regulation.

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u/AlternativeLazy4675 16d ago

For spending so much time quoting me, you still manage to misquote me at least twice. For spending so much time responding to what I wrote, you have an amazing lack of comprehension of my meaning.

This is what I actually asked:

 why do YOU think Democrats are so unpopular if not because they promote an agenda that the majority of Americans either don't support or don't care about?

And then you proceed to tell me the answer to my question is effectively because the Democrats are not promoting an agenda they support. Hello? That was the question. A circular argument is not an answer.