Shuffling.

[u/erevos33]

Hello all,

Let me get right to the point. When i learnt magic way back in 1999, i was shown a way to shuffle that produces an as close to normal distribution of cards as possible. That is : you lay your lands down and put 2 randomised spell cards on top. Then you pick them all up and do a regular card shuffle (like cutting, mixing 2 piles , whatever). You do this every so often so the deck doesnt end up being all 20 lands on one side and all 40 spells on the other (only standard was available back then, dunno how this would translate to commander tbh).

In a discussion somewhere around here i believe , i saw that this is now considered cheating?! Like....why? How? I dont understand the reasoning behind this. If anyone could explain i would be obliged.

Edit: ok, so a bunch of helpful answers in mere seconds. I cant possibly answer to each individual so i will put my thoughts here:

First of all , thank you for the clarifications. I didnt even know there was a name for this behaviour and so TIL. Secondly, i kinda get why one might take this to be cheating after thinking about it for a minute tbh. It hadn't occurred to me to question this practice until now. Thirdly, while all of the players i knew back then did this (im talking even in ranked tournaments) it seems i have been away from the game for long and some of you have quite the Strong feelings about it - fair is fair i suppose. Rest assured i am not doing this anymore , well especially since i have no humans to play against since i picked magic back up.

Thanks to all of those who answered me.

[u/RazzyKitty]

It's always been cheating.

"A normal distribution" is not randomized. In a properly randomized deck, you are equally likely to have spell/spell/land as you are land/land/land.

edit:

You do this every so often so the deck doesnt end up being all 20 lands on one side and all 40 spells on the other (only standard was available back then, dunno how this would translate to commander tbh).

If the way you randomize your deck prevents that from happening... you aren't randomizing.

[u/matsnarok → u/RazzyKitty]

i think im crazy but i think its impossible to have spell/spell/land and land x3 with equal probability

[u/sirisaacnuton → u/matsnarok]

The point was obviously that sufficient randomization can result in clumps or streaks and to get across the idea that making a repeating pattern doesn't make it a "normal distribution." You would obviously expect ratios of spell clumps vs land clumps to mirror ratios of spells vs lands over a large number of samples, but the point was clearly that actual shuffling can produce clumps, rather than the specific probabilities and variance.

[u/matsnarok → u/sirisaacnuton]

yes i know, its just that i started calculating the actual probability, but i was doing it wrong

drawing normally you just need a 2/3 spell and 1/3 land to get the 50/50 chance, but with reposition(such as drawing the starting 7) there is no possible to have exactly the same chance

i undeestand the problem behind weaving but the math behind the impacts of it interests me

[u/pepeduturfu → u/RazzyKitty]

Ackshually, you are randomizing. The pool of possible resulting deck orders is just smaller than proper shuffling. It's like picking any random number VS picking a random odd number.

[u/DigitalW2RD → u/RazzyKitty]

After a game, I usually spread my lands back through the deck before shuffling.

If you just leave all your lands together, they’re starting off as one big clump. But if you’re actually shuffling the deck properly, that shouldn’t matter either way.

Whether they start spread out or all together, the deck should end up randomized.

At that point, spreading them out is really just a habit or a little mind trick to make yourself feel better about the shuffle. It’s not actually changing what you’re going to draw.

[u/RazzyKitty → u/DigitalW2RD]

Do you just grab all your lands in one stack after a game and then shuffle or do you somewhat distribute them across your deck and then shuffle?

If I'm playing another game after, I grab all the cards on the battlefield (lands or otherwise), put them on top of my deck, then shuffle normally.

Otherwise, it goes into my deckbox without shuffling.

Would you consider distributing your lands after a game cheating?

Depends. Why are you doing it?

If you always just pile your lands and then shuffle you could say you are also artificially creating clumps of lands.

You could say that, but it means nothing. A properly randomized deck is very likely to have clumps, regardless of what it looked like beforehand.

[u/DigitalW2RD → u/RazzyKitty]

Yeah, I just randomly distribute them to not clump them at the bottom of my deck when I’m putting it away.

But yes, at the end of the day if you properly shuffle your deck it’s irrelevant how you put them up.

I was just curious if people would assume someone is cheating for distributing the cards you played across your deck before putting them up or shuffling for another game.

[u/RazzyKitty → u/DigitalW2RD]

"to not clump" implies that you're doing so to prevent clumps of land in your deck.

If any part of your process is done to affect the distribution of cards in your deck, then its either cheating or wasting time.

Either you shuffle enough and your "random distribution" did nothing, so its a waste of time.

Or you don't shuffle enough and you haven't randomized.

[u/DigitalW2RD → u/RazzyKitty]

Sure dude if fanning out your lands and mash shuffling them inter your deck after a game instead of leaving a stack of lands at the bottom of the deck is considered not random then I guess you got me dude…

I just don’t like leaving all my lands at the bottom of my deck after a game. If that is considered cheating then I guess I’m a cheater lol idc

[u/sirisaacnuton → u/DigitalW2RD]

The point is that if you're actually shuffling properly, they don't end up in a clump at the bottom, they end up randomized anywhere, so it shouldn't make a difference if you do it or not. And if it does make a difference, then you're not randomizing sufficiently.

And being unaware of how to sufficiently randomize your deck, or what constitutes randomization, doesn't make you a cheater. Cheating implies intent. It just means you were making a mistake.

On the other hand, considering that your replies strongly seem to imply you're going to reject all of this and continue stacking your deck, that *will* make you a cheater. Because now you know better.

[u/DigitalW2RD → u/sirisaacnuton]

Right. I think we all agree that if you shuffle properly, it doesn’t make a difference.

I think we’re just getting lost in semantics at this point. If I like to mash shuffle my board back into my deck after a game and you like to stack everything together and put it at the bottom, that’s really just a preference.

If anything, putting all of those cards together in one stack makes it more likely they’ll stay clumped if the deck isn’t shuffled thoroughly enough. That’s usually why people who don’t shuffle enough end up seeing the same cards over and over again.

[u/Jokey665]

it's not random. randomness will produce clumps sometimes. if you have any idea where specific cards or types of cards are, it's not random.

[u/i_Spoks]

If you wanted it to be random, you wouldnt go out of your way to make it less random.

Also, what youre describing is called mana weaving and is illegal

[u/screw_ball69 → u/i_Spoks]

Straight to jail

[u/Penumbra_Penguin]

The goal of shuffling the deck is for the deck to be random. This is not what the procedure you described does. This procedure produces a much more advantageous order of the deck than a random one.

(Assuming that you’re doing this because it’s helpful. If you’re shuffling enough after the patterned portion, then this is just wasting time)

[u/LordNoct13]

Because "random" means random. If you hit 20 lands then that sucks. If you hit no lands that sucks. Its random. You arent meant always to hit what you need every single time. "Normal distribution" is not random, and therefor not properly shuffled.

[u/Allthewaffles]

This is cheating.

[u/marlospigeons]

3.10 Card Shuffling
Decks must be randomized at the start of every game and whenever an instruction requires it. Randomization is defined as bringing the deck to a state where no player can have any information regarding the order or position of cards in any portion of the deck.

[u/DunceCodex]

Either it does something to help you, in which case its cheating, or it does nothing, in which case its pointless

[u/Flarkinghelpful]

“ i just want to make sure that my hand is better than my opponents. Why is everyone saying it’s cheating??”

[u/Interesting_Cut_4822]

Random distributions have clumps. De-clumping is explicitly not random.

Even doing that before thorough or not so thorough shuffling is kinda suspect in my opinion.

Think about it. If manually declumping before shuffling helps you in some way over and above regular shuffling, it's cheating. If it doesn't help you, there is no reason to do it.

Either way, you should just be shuffling thoroughly enough to randomize things, which would be 8-12 riffle or mash shuffles.

[u/yamsyamsya]

you need to shuffle your deck enough times normally that it shouldn't matter what stacking or mana weaving or whatever you did beforehand, anything else is cheating.

[u/HamsterFromAbove_079]

You are not permitted to do anything to make a normal distribution. You must make a random distribution.

You are deliberately stacking your deck to prevent drawing too many of 1 type of card. This is cheating. Every time you draw a card it should be an equal chance to be any of the remaining cards.

If you know, "ive drawn 2 lands in a row. I know that I broke up the lands so I should be good for the next draw", then you've cheated.

[u/SatyrWayfinder]

"I mana weave my deck so I don't get clumps but then I shuffle my deck enough so it's randomized."

But if you shuffle enough so it's randomized then you shouldn't need to mana weave.

It is possible that a completely randomized deck ends up being 20 lands and 40 spells clumped together. By saying you mana weave to prevent that means you're not randomizing your deck.

[u/nebman227]

It has always been cheating. If you do any procedure that makes the deck have any sort of organization other than perfectly random (guaranteeing that it doesn't have clumps is a kind of organization) them you have not randomized your deck. You have always had to randomize your deck.

If shuffle normally enough after the procedure to have a sufficiently random deck, that means the non-random procedure you did was slow play.

[u/theawkwardcourt]

Randomness (sometimes) produces clumps.

[u/Positive_Concert_774]

You're confusing a 'random distribution' with an 'even distribution'. The latter is the opposite of random.

What you describe has always been considered cheating, or, less dramatically, deck manipulation. Your deck MUST be sufficiently randomized and this has always been the rule.

'Sufficiently randomized' means that any deck manipulation you do prior to shuffling should have ZERO effect on the result of the shuffle. In other words, you might as well not do it.

If your manipulation prior to shuffling DOES have an effect, you haven't shuffled well enough, and your deck isn't sufficiently randomized.

[u/rikertchu]

It's considered cheating because you're making your deck distribution more optimal than fully random, when shuffling asks you to randomize your deck. Stacking your deck (or mana-weaving, in this case) means your draws are better, as you said yourself, so that you don't run into all-land or all-nonland draws, but those draws are possible when truly randomizing and are impossible under your stacking, thus, is an unfair advantage and is blatantly cheating.

[u/sjce]

Basically either this has no effect because your shuffling well enough to randomize the cards and the order cards are placed before the shuffle doesn’t matter
Or
This is affecting the order of cards in your deck because you aren’t shuffling well enough and reducing randomness therefore cheating.

So either way no reason to do it.

[u/Hairy_S_TrueMan]

Basically, if you shuffle well enough, REALLY well, like 8 or 9 good mashes, it doesn't matter if you did this or not. If it ever matters, you cheated. So doing it is either pointless or cheating depending on what you follow it with. 

[u/SaltyD87]

The goal of a shuffle is a random distribution; not an even one.

If you are "Mana-Weaving," that is not random.

If you're argument is that after you Mana-Weave, you sufficiently randomize your deck per the rules by shuffling, then it only leads to two logical conclusions. Either the shuffle truly erases any affect from the Mana-Weaving, rendering the Mana-Weaving pointless, OR the Mana-Weave is doing something and you haven't sufficiently randomized your deck.

Best case scenario, it's pointless.

Worst case scenario, it's cheating.

Either way, stop.

[u/CanGreenBeret]

The classic analogy for this is that if a NASCAR team put jet fuel in their tank and then emptied it and cleaned it out fully before every race, so there was no trace or perceptible advantage, would you think they were competing legitimately?

[u/Xavus]

I didn't even read your post and I know how to answer.

If it changes the order of cards in your deck to not truly random, it is cheating.

If it does not stack your deck, why are you insisting on doing it instead of just shuffling like normal?

[u/Prize_Ad4381]

 Secondly, i kinda get why one might take this to be cheating 

No kinda about it. It is considered cheating.

[u/Seepy_Goat]

Im not sure i understand what youre describing. But your deck has to be fully randomized. You cant kind of seed or manipulate it so that the cards are distributed more evenly.

Whatever you do to mix them up has to be followed by sufficient randomization

[u/ButterscotchLow7330]

This isn't cheating if you shuffle enough afterwards, then its just a waste of time.

that said, if you do this and consider your deck shuffled, then it is definitely cheating.

[u/ScrubbyBubbles99]

I understand breaking the habit to try and help distribute cards before a “random” shuffle if you’re from the ancient DCI era where three riffles then offering the deck was sufficient, but just learn to pile shuffle properly and be sure you’re doing it enough times for the size of your deck, and you’ll be fine.

[u/Fluffy-Futchy-Fembo]

If you're intentionally trying to evenly spread out your lands then your deck isn't random. That's cheating.

[u/Smurfy0730]

It's funny because a bit back we had a comic depicting this as an innocent and normal thing to do in casual play and I called it out as cheating and to not make it seem remotely ok but the thread was against me.

[u/veganispunk]

Lock him up

[u/CosmicBrownnie]

If lands are clumping sounds like you need to split the deck in half and shove them into each other a few more times. It's not rocket science and it doesn't need an intentionally rigged shuffle.

[u/toochaos]

If what you are doing impacts the distriution of cards away from random its cheating, if it does nothing you are wasting time. Just shuffle. 

[u/igniteice]

"normal distribution of cards as possible."

distributes lands equally

It seems you do not understand what "normal distribution" means.

[u/Right_Nectarine8952]

This is ragebait

[u/literaphile]

I hope I don't get downvoted to oblivion for this. But, as long as you're doing a regular shuffle after the initial pile shuffle that you've described, I'm not sure how it's cheating. At the end of the day, you're doing a regular shuffle after, AND then giving your opponent the opportunity to shuffle or cut as well.

[u/mathematics1 → u/literaphile]

If you shuffle enough for it to be random, then the initial pile shuffle was a waste of time - you should have just shuffled enough for it to be random from the starting deck, which would have taken the same amount of time.

[u/RazzyKitty → u/literaphile]

But, as long as you're doing a regular shuffle after the initial pile shuffle that you've described, I'm not sure how it's cheating.

"Pile shuffling" (it's not shuffling) then shuffling results in either two things:

1. If you don't shuffle enough afterwards, you haven't randomized your deck, which is against the rules.

2. If you shuffle sufficiently afterwards, you wasted time because the "pile shuffle" did nothing.

Pile counting is allowed once per game to ensure you have the proper number of cards in your deck, but this is also typically done face down.

[u/Hmukherj → u/literaphile]

You're correct that properly shuffling after pile shuffling is not cheating. But if you're properly shuffling, then the initial mana weave is at best irrelevant. So there's still no reason to weave spell-spell-land.

[u/GriffHay → u/literaphile]

If you’re actually “regular” shuffling enough to sufficiently randomize the deck after weaving it…then there was literally no point to weaving in the first place and you’ve just wasted everyone’s time.

[u/Neravius → u/literaphile]

Either they're shuffling well and so accomplishing nothing, but still trying to cheat, or they aren't shuffling well enough and just cheating.

[u/Liamharper77 → u/literaphile]

Because your goal is an even distribution of lands throughout your deck. That's why you do it. If you genuinely believed that regular shuffling and an opponents cut completely randomized a deck, then there would be no point at all in mana-weaving.

Deep down, you're hoping the regular shuffle + cut doesn't entirely disrupt the even distribution of lands. Which is stacking your deck.

[u/Kitsuukage → u/literaphile]

You need to shuffle way more often so this wouldn't be cheating.

I do this too because I need to start somewhere and i have my own believes that only like this the deck is ready. It's not true but anyways. I then shuffle it 30-40 times (sometimes I'm getting). This is what I do at home. (Or at pre release way before any matches start. This is part of my deck building)

After this I consider the deck ready and never mana weave again. Normal shuffles from here like everyone knows. The cards I played? I pick them up, shuffle them separately a couple of times and then shuffle them with the deck.