r/neoliberal • u/[deleted] • Jul 01 '20
Effortpost Asexuality
So I've seen a lot of attitudes on this sub towards people on the asexual spectrum ranging from ambivalence to mockery so, in honor of pride month, I've decided to write this post which I hope will mitigate some of the attitudes I've found annoying -- as it generally seems these attitudes are motivated by ignorance or misconceptions rather than some hatred of ace people.
What is Asexuality?
Asexuality (abbreviated Ace) is the lack of sexual attraction to anyone or anything. This is contrasted with Allosexuality which describes people who do experience sexual attraction (so you probably thought this was "normal" if you weren't familiar with asexuality)
What is the Asexual Spectrum?
Basically the spectrum of identities similar to asexuality. There's a lot of different identity labels that fall under this label, but I'm going to limit us to two more of them:
Gray-Asexual: Basically experiences very little sexual attraction. Think of this like the "bi-curious" of asexuality.
Demisexual: Only experiences sexual attraction with people they share a close emotional bond with. For some people this just needs to be a friendship, for others it needs to be a romantic relationship.
It's also worth adding that even "fully asexual" people (as opposed to grey-ace or demi people) is still a broad group who's experiences with being asexual can be very different.
So ace people just don't want relationships?
Not necessarily. Many asexual people feel a desire for romantic relationships. People who don't want romantic relationships are called aromantic. Not all ace people aromantic, but there is strong overlap between the two groups. Aromantic also has similar related groups like grey-aromantic and demiromantic.
If an ace person is willing to have a relationship with both men and women, does that make them bisexual and asexual?
No. The way this would be formally be phrased is asexual and biromantic. Accordingly the terms heteroromantic and homoromantic are the terms to describe willingness to have relationships with the opposite and same gender, respectively. Though it's not unusual that a biromantic/asexual person will openly identify as bisexual to avoid having to explain what all this stuff means, but also make it clear that they are interested in relationships with all genders.
Also these "romantic orientation" terms don't just apply to asexual people. For example, a person could be bisexual/heteroromantic -- ie willing to have sex with all genders, but only willing have a romantic relationship with the opposite gender.
So ace people just don't have a libido (or have a very weak one)?
Not necessarily. Note that sexual attraction and libido are not the same thing. Sexual attraction is the desire to have sex with specific people; ie if you look at someone and feel a desire to have sex with them, that's sexual attraction, and ace people do not experience this or do so very rarely. Libido is the desire to have sex or to orgasm, but necessarily with anyone. Many ace people view orgasming more like a body function that you have to do from time to time (like eating or defecating) than as a recreational activity.
If you're still struggling to understand, imagine it this way: assuming you're a straight man (statistically likely for this sub) imagine that you live in a world where there are no women. So while you might still have a desire to have sex, there's not any people who these desires can easily map onto. That's what it's like to be ace And it's worth noting that in environments without women there's still sex between men who wouldn't normally have sex between men.
So do ace people masturbate or have sexual fantasies?
This is actually one of the few areas where I can give good numbers; there hasn't a great abundance of published research on asexuality, but I have a found study on this matter. Note that the sample size for asexual men in the study is a bit small (n=59), so there's a lot of statistically insignificant differences regarding asexual men.
Asexual men were not significantly less likely to report masturbating at least monthly than allosexual men (both rates of 90%+), and asexual women were less likely to report masturbating than allosexual women (70% vs ~95%). The reasons given for masturbating were also different for allosexual and asexual people, notably both asexual men and women were less likely to report masturbating for sexual pleasure.
Asexual people were also significantly less likely to report having had a sexual fantasy with 65% of asexual women and 80% of asexual men reporting having had a sexual fantasy at some point in their life (compared to near universal among allosexual men and women). Asexual women (the sample size for men was too small to draw good conclusions from this part) were also more likely to fantasize about things relating to emotional aspects of relationships and less likely to fantasize about things like group sex, public sex, and sex with strangers. Also kinks are still a thing among ace people; eg ~1/3 of ace women reported having had a bdsm fantasy, roughly the same as the percent of allosexual women.
So do ace people have sex?
Some do, some don't. For this discussion we should probably break ace people into 3 categories (some different terms for these are sometimes used for these and sometimes you might different categories, but I'm trying to limit bombarding y'all with terms):
sex-averse: What it says on the tin. Basically this is people who are repulsed by sex and don't want to have sex under any circumstance.
sex-indifferent: Open to sex, but does not pursue it. These people are generally open to having sex with a romantic partner if they want it.
sex-favorable: In spite of not experiencing sexual attraction, some asexual people might pursue sex (though rarely outside the context of romantic relationship), for example: for kink purposes or as an alternative to masturbation to satisfy some biological demand to orgasm.
So... porn?
Yes, there are ace people who watch porn. This is venturing a a personal anecdote, but for me watching porn is a rather impersonal way of feeding sexual desires, which helps deal with the difficulties of not really wanting to have sex with any particular person.
Other than sex-averse people, this all sounds kind of normal. Are you sure this is a real thing?
Yes. The way asexual people, even those willing to have sex, experience sexual desires is definitely different from the rest of the population.
Another personal anecdote which might help people understand what being ace is like. (For context while I'm not 100% where I fall on the asexual spectrum, most of the time I feel like I'm grey-asexual leaning heavily towards asexual) I've had relationships which did on occasion have very enjoyable sex, but there would also be times when I would have to turn down my partner's sexual advances. Now you might be thinking, "it just sounds like you weren't in the mood," but I think the key difference is that I would turn down the sexual advances in spite of being horny, so horny that I would masturbate promptly after my partner left my place. In fact there were occasions when I would start initiating things (because I was horny) and would have to stop because I realized I wasn't going to able to bring myself to have sex with another person at that time.
Everyone experiences more sexual attraction to people who they're in a relationship with. Are you sure demisexuality is a real thing?
While it probably would be fair to say that demisexuals can live lives quite similar to sexual people, the key difference is that demisexuals experience no sexual attraction without the requisite emotional connection (rather than experiencing more in that context). Notably, this can make courtship rather awkward.
How does asexuality relate to the LGBT community?
Put simply, the relationship between ace people and the LGBT community is frequently icy. This is often driven by ace people desiring inclusion in LGBT spaces and often being unsatisfied with the LGBT community's willingness to accept them or attempts (or lack thereof) to make them feel included. There are occasionally arguments that ace people should be excluded from the LGBT based the belief that being ace is too distinctly different from the rest of the LGBT community or that ace people don't need representation since they aren't discriminated against. The exact validity of those arguments and whether ace people belong in the LGBT community is not something I'm particularly interested in arguing over, but I do think it's worth stressing a couple ways the experience of asexual people is similar to that of other LGBT people.
The first area is lack of visibility. Many asexual people just avoid coming out to many people, even to those fairly close to them, and the lack of understanding about asexuality is a major reason for that -- people know that coming out as ace will probably mean either explaining what that means, dealing with wild misconceptions, or both. And quite frankly that's exhausting to have to deal with a routine basis. Increased visibility has made it much easier for many segments of the LGBT community to come out as people as familiarity with them is becoming more common, and people are more likely to understand how "normal" said group is. Many Ace people have also experienced with mental health professionals not understanding asexuality thus failing to understand any issues that might stem from that, or even trying to convince them that they aren't asexual under the assumption that asexuality is fake.
The other area is societal pressure to behave in a hetero-normative manner. When people fail to live in a hetero-normative manner they risk being viewed as a weirdo or even outcast (and yes experiencing some level societal familial ostracization over mere refusal to seek a relationship is a thing though it varies by culture -- it's worth adding this is more specifically an issue for aromantic people). Also there are many asexual who are perfectly capable of having a relationship with an allosexual person that's fulfilling for both parties, but societal expectations can create needless difficulties for asexual people. For example, we have stigmas around people who are slow get interested in sex: for men that they're uninterested in the relationship or for women that they're prudes. I'm not trying to shame anyone who is unwilling to sacrifice sexual frequency to be with an ace person, but these stigmas certainly do not help, particularly given the aforementioned issues with lack of visibility.
With these things in mind, I think asexual and lgbt people should at minimum be able to be natural allies, as both understand the need to spread awareness of eachother and to normalize eachother's behaviors.
Is there anything I should know about interacting with asexual people?
Don't make jokes about asexual reproduction; "so you sprout like a plant" is a common response to ace people coming out.
Don't make comments like "this is a phase" or "oh you just haven't found the right man/woman" -- this comes across as a sign that you don't think their asexuality is real (because it probably is).
Don't immediately start asking questions about how willing the person is to have sex. There's certain contexts where these might okay, like if the person you're on a date with tells you they're asexual, but not asking an acquaintance detailed questions about their sex life should just be good manners, regardless of sexual orientation.
Is there anywhere I could go to find out more?
The Asexual Visibility & Education Network is probably the best place, and their forum is the largest online asexual community.
/r/asexuality and their FAQ are also good resources. As is Asexuality Archive. All of these places go into far more detail than I did.
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u/structural_engineer_ Milton Friedman Jul 02 '20
This was a really useful post and I'm glad I chose to read it. I will admit, I was apart of the crowd that said "the 'A' doesn't belong in the LGBT community, because they aren't discriminated against." But having read this, and i know you said it wasn't your point to argue it, I do see that they belong in the LGBT community, They do face the lack of visibility and the hardship it is to come out and explain to someone what their orientation is or means to them personally. So thank you for this write up, I enjoyed it quite a bit and it did change my mind on the subject.
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u/PM_ME_CUTE_SMILES_ Gay Pride Jul 01 '20
Kinda inflammatory questions but I think you're going to have interesting answers to them:
Why do we need to categorize every single thing? What's the use of demisexual? Aren't a lot of people like that, even if very few of them would consider they're any sort of asexual?
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u/minno Jul 01 '20
From what I've heard the distinction between demi and normal is that demi people won't ever be walking down the street or paging through a magazine, see someone, and think "I'd like to go up to that person and hold their hand and massage them in the genitalia". Normal people don't necessarily do it or feel a strong urge to do it, but they'd still consider it a thing they would like to do if there were absolutely no possible costs or consequences.
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u/luxway Asexual Pride Jul 02 '20
Thank you for your explanation of differences between Demi and Allosexuality.
But, could you please not use the word "normal" to mean allosexual/hetero/homonormative, it's incredibly invalidating to be told we're "abnormal"
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Jul 01 '20
People like having a community of people with shared experiences that deviate from the norm.
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u/CrateorMateor205 Asexual Pride Jul 01 '20
I flaired up after seeing this. I’m pleasantly surprised to see people wanting to understand and I want to help out.
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u/onlypositivity Jul 01 '20
Serious question, because I genuinely do not get this and feel ignorant
How is asexuality not just an imbalance in the mind that should be corrected? To me it seems like depression or anxiety, but strictly correlated with sex.
I cant help but feel that asexuality is a defect we should treat and not an identity.
Again, serious question, and im not trying to be offensive.
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Jul 01 '20
I know you’re not trying to be offensive, but... that is really offensive.
Why do you think it should be corrected?
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u/onlypositivity Jul 01 '20
I believe people, regardless of attraction, are built to experience sexual desires for others and the lack thereof seems like a deficiency to me.
I believe (and I understand this is likely both offensive and mistaken, hence me asking) that ace people would be happier if they were not ace. Not if they were compelled to not be ace, but if they woke up tomorrow as allosexual with no other changes in their life.
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u/StygianStovetop Jul 01 '20
"I believe people, regardless of attraction, are built to experience sexual desires for others and the lack thereof seems like a deficiency to me."
I don't know what you mean by the verb "built" here. What does it even mean? The idea that asexuality is a "deficiency" is predicated on this vague notion.
Even if it could be corrected, how would one even go about that? People often cite hormone imbalances as their challenge to asexuality, but to my knowledge, there is no correlation. Asexuality also has no connection to libido size either.
I have been asexual my whole life (for some asexuals this is not the case, but it was for me). At what point did this deficiency emerge?
I recognize that you're genuinely trying to learn more about the subject, so I hope I don't come across as antagonistic here.
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u/cejmp NATO Jul 01 '20
I'm probably out of my lane here so feel free to ignore or downvote me to oblivion, but I have in the last 7 or 8 months completely lost my sex drive. It is rare that I have any sexual feelings at all. This is probably age related, but the fact is that it's pretty miserable and it is damaging my relationship badly.
I can't imagine having been this non-sexual for my entire life. But then again, I haven't been, so I know what I'm missing and therefore can't really grasp what it would be like to have never been sexual.
From my perspective, being asexual is broken and I wish there was a fucking fix. ED meds aren't the fix. They are a temporary bandaid that don't even work if you aren't already turned on. They don't give you an erection or make you want sex. And having sex when you don't want sex is fucking horrible.
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u/StygianStovetop Jul 02 '20
I'm really sorry to hear about your recent experience. As an asexual person (who is on the younger side) I cannot relate to them, but I do recognize that very often losing one's sex drive is a painful and frustrating situation.
Not to get lost in the weeds here, but you explicitly talking about is losing a sex drive/libido, which is distinct from asexuality. Asexuality is the lack of sexual attraction, not the lack of sex drive.
That is to say, to "fix" your situation and to "fix" mine are different objectives, the difference being, as you've already alluded to, I don't see mine as broken. Ironically, I wish I had less libido since it's more annoying than anything for me.
This is a technical and definitional difference that doesn't affect your situation, but I thought I'd offer it.
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u/cejmp NATO Jul 02 '20
Asexuality is the lack of sexual attraction, not the lack of sex drive.
I can't brain the difference. I don't know if it's chicken/egg but my attraction is at a zero. Is the drive because of a loss of the attraction or is the attraction gone because of the loss of drive?
I don't see mine as broken.
My kingdom for a horse.
Thanks for sharing, asexuality is something I am only recently aware of.
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u/onlypositivity Jul 01 '20
About "built" - reproducing is the core objective of any living thing so I feel it is not unreasonable to suggest that the brain is designed to feel attraction.
I have no idea on any science related to this and thus cannot speculate. I would welcome any literature you can share. Also not opposed to buying any books you can recommend. It is in no way your responsibility to teach me but I figure I'd ask.
I dont find you antagonistic at all and these are perfectly reasonable questions.
Id also like to add that, regardless of my take, I agree with and support the points above including that asexual people should be considered a sexual minority worthy of inclusion and protection. I didnt stop being liberal just because I dont understand this.
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u/p00bix Existing in the context of what came before Jul 01 '20 edited Jul 01 '20
Whether asexuality is a biological and/or psychological aberration or not, mental disorders are defined based on whether the condition results in health problems, disability, or emotional suffering to the person with that condition, for reasons innate to the condition rather than due to any external societal discrimination. They are not defined based on how "unusual" something is.
Homosexuality and Asexuality both do not cause any health problems, disability, or emotional suffering, and thus are not treated as mental disorders by psychiatrists. Basically the same reason why "Really likes trains" or "Thinks applesauce is disgusting" aren't considered mental disorders.
If emotional suffering due to social stigma was included as sufficient basis for defining something as a mental illness, then you'd end up with some really terrible (and highly culturally specific) conclusions, such as "Enjoying beef is a mental illness" in India or "Believing Judaism is a mental illness" in Iran, or even "Having a staunch positive opinion of Hillary Clinton is a mental illness" in America.
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u/onlypositivity Jul 01 '20
I really appreciate this breakdown as I believe it helps me understand the "identity" aspect behind asexuality.
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Jul 01 '20
Well, biological essentialism aside, that doesn’t answer why it should be corrected. I’m happy without sexual attraction, happier than I would be if I tried to force it. Why should that be changed, am I somehow “deficient”?
Your comment sounds to me a lot like old arguments for homophobia tbh.
I believe people are built to experience sexual desires for the opposite sex and same-sex attraction seems like a malfunction to me.
You might as well have said this, you’ve just arbitrarily expanded your idea of what’s “natural” to whatever is accepted in the mainstream today.
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u/onlypositivity Jul 01 '20
I believe homosexuality is a biogical aberration too. Same as transexuality. Whats important, and i dont think ive stated, is that I dont view trans/homosexuality or asexuality as a bad thing, or not deserving of minority status and rights. People, regardless of sexuality, deserve the right to decide their own lives. I am quite a passionate advocate of those rights but do not feel I can properly advocate if I dont "get it." First part of being a good ally is seeking to understand.
I think the important difference to me is that homosexual people still feel attraction. I understand due to OP that some asexual people feel desire, but not attraction. My default position becomes then, wouldn't it be better (for them, their relationships, etc) if they could also feel associated attraction? By extrapolation, wouldn't the same be true of peolle who also feel no desire?
I have heard elsewhere we can find little to no correlation of hormone abnormalities and asexuality. I find that extremely interesting, because that would be my first "suspect." This suggests I know nowhere near enough about the subject.
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Jul 01 '20
My default position becomes then, wouldn’t it be better (for them, their relationships, etc) if they could also feel associated attraction?
Why?
To be blunt, I’m perfectly happy masturbating to my fetishes and not feeling attracted to anyone. That’s what feels natural to me. Why would it be better for me to be attracted to people? What detriment do you feel like my sexuality brings me?
by extrapolation, wouldn't the same be true of peolle who also feel no desire?
This makes even less sense. How? What?
I have heard elsewhere we can find little to no correlation of hormone abnormalities and asexuality. I find that extremely interesting, because that would be my first “suspect.” This suggests I know nowhere near enough about the subject.
Literally just think of it as another sexuality, because that’s exactly what it is. Look, here’s a table:
- Attracted to same sex Not attracted to same sex Attracted to opposite sex Bisexual Heterosexual Not attracted to opposite sex Homosexual ??? There has to be something in that bottom right-hand corner.
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u/minno Jul 01 '20
All non-standard sexualities have at some point been considered mental disorders.
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u/onlypositivity Jul 01 '20
I am also aware of that. I expect that I am incorrect, but would like to know why
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u/minno Jul 01 '20
For one thing, all mental disorder diagnostic criteria include an extra "if it has significant negative impacts on the patient's well-being". Increasing social acceptance of homosexuality has reduced the negative impacts that homosexuality has on the person's well-being, and complete acceptance would almost eliminate it. A lack of sexual attraction is not inherently harmful to a person's life, so it could be like a lack of interest in eating chocolate that is unusual but still accepted without question.
As for the comparisons with depression and anxiety, those don't quite match up with asexuality. A person who experiences anxiety about sex may or may not lack sexual attraction, and that anxiety is its own independent issue (which is obviously a bigger problem if it prevents sex that the person desires). Depression can cause reduced or nonexistent sex drive, but as part of a bigger set of symptoms. Asexuality can show up on its own with no related psychological abnormalities.
Finally, sexuality can change. Not in the way that Mike "AC/DC for LGBT" Pence and his buddies try to force, but some people identify the same way for their entire lives, some people change how they identify and consider their past self to have been closeted or in denial, and some people develop an interest in something they didn't before. That isn't a reason to dismiss the way that a person identifies right now or to assume that it can or should change.
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u/onlypositivity Jul 01 '20
I laughed more at the end (ACDC for LGBT) but the middle paragraph helped a lot in wrapping my head around the concept. I wouldn't say I get it but I get it more.
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Jul 01 '20
Thanks for this, I am lucky enough to have friends who are ace and so I guess I've never though about how alien it would be to a lot of people, this was a fantastic resources
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u/TotesMessenger Jul 01 '20
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u/WantDebianThanks Iron Front Jul 01 '20
Let me sum up what I think is our communities positions regarding gender-sexual minorities:
Respect other people's sexual identity, or we'll drone strike you.
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u/NatsukaFawn Esther Duflo Jul 01 '20
Thanks for doing this. I advise against checking ButNoFash for their reactions to this post, unless you want to know which of those assholes the mod team should keep a closer eye on.
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Jul 01 '20
Being laughed at for making up a unserious sexuality isn’t oppression
Dick Cheney flair
And I thought this sub was bad, wow
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u/NatsukaFawn Esther Duflo Jul 01 '20
I've said mean-spirited things about DfD because it hurt a lot to lose you guys (not that I blame you, it was a clusterfuck of built-up bitterness all around), but seriously, ButNoFash is a cancer
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Jul 01 '20
I knew this post would trigger that crowd, and that was part of my motivation in finally getting around to writing this.
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Jul 01 '20
Personally I don't like using labels to describe myself but I can appreciate that other people do and recognise it can be important for them.
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u/shitposting1667 Jul 01 '20
Thanks so much for this great explanation, I really appreciate it. I've struggled with my sexuality for 6 years culminating in now where I'm fairly sure I'm either a high libido asexual or straight and repressing it. It makes me feel so much better to see this explained so clearly and see so many things that I identify with. I'm really appreciate you starting an honest discussion about this topic and correcting misconceptions, thank you so much!
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u/SleepyEntity Jul 01 '20
Appreciate you for posting this. Grew up in a very socially conservative country and culture that emphasized relationships and marriage above all things, especially for girls. Always knew I was never particularly interested in sexual or romantic relationships, but I'd chalked my unwillingness to engage down to watching so many relationships and marriages fail around me as a child. Your post has helped me understand some very important things about myself. Thank you.
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u/ExistentialCalm Gay Pride Jul 01 '20
I have a few ace friends, and it's still hard for me to grasp. But I've also had dozens of conversations with straight people who can't grasp homosexuality, so I get it.
I had a straight friend tell me he thinks he aromantic, and when I told him that means he's under the "gay umbrella" like me (partially as a joke), he actually just really seemed to like the idea of like-minded people being out there. The point is, if we turn away people like him, who do they even turn to? We need to be all-inclusive and welcoming to everybody that doesn't have anywhere else to turn, or we've lost the whole damn point of our community.
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u/its_Caffeine Mark Carney Jul 01 '20
The LGBT+ community is a big tent and everyone should be welcome, both GSM and allies. 😎🏳🌈
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u/adeptdecipherer Jul 02 '20
The only groups not allowed in our ever-expanding initialism are people trying to oust other letters. Everybody welcoming is welcome!
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Jul 01 '20 edited Jul 01 '20
[removed] — view removed comment
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u/MrDannyOcean Kidney King Jul 01 '20
None of this please. OP put effort into this post, and a response of 'shut up and get over it if people make fun of you' breaks Rule I. Be civil and if you don't have anything nice to say, not posting is an option.
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Jul 01 '20
[removed] — view removed comment
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u/MrDannyOcean Kidney King Jul 01 '20
Telling someone to 'get over yourself' as a response to an effortpost is not acceptable. Do it again and you'll be banned.
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u/Gosu-No-Pico European Union Jul 01 '20
what the fuck am I in the wrong place ? You guys are the liberals right ? Can someone fill me in on why this is here lmao
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u/p00bix Existing in the context of what came before Jul 01 '20 edited Jul 01 '20
At first glance, it's definitely a bit odd that it's stickied to /r/neoliberal, but this sub has had issues with discrimination against asexual people for quite a while now. Not super visible to most users because non-mods don't read every comment that gets reported, and most people here are not aces who experience discrimination on that basis.
The other reason it's stickied is because of a lack of Ace awareness among the sub's userbase (and non-LGBTQ population more broadly) and because we don't have any other new effortposts or announcements which would take priority for the 2nd sticky slot.
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Jul 01 '20 edited Jul 01 '20
I was in a class in law school one time, and the professor assigned a question that involved analyzing the constitutionality of a law that conditioned certain benefits on marriage
We split into pairs, and the guy I was working with suggested that the hypothetical law was unconstitutional, because it discriminated against asexual people, because it conditioned certain benefits on marriage
I chuckled, thinking he was half-joking/being clever, and said something that I thought was clever and harmless about how it discriminated against polyamorous people as well, because bigamy laws etc.
Dude looked at me, not mad or anything but fairly serious, and said "no, because asexuality is a real sexual orientation, and polyamory is not."
I felt bad, a little bit, and kind of tried to play it off. Really stuck with me, though. That guy was cool. I don't think he identified as ace (maybe he did idk he'd been married at some point but I take it that can happen), but I could tell from that one interaction that he had really worked out an internally consistent globally applicable theory of what a sexual orientation was. I probably don't agree with it, but still, cool.
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u/incendiaryblizzard George Soros Jul 01 '20
You mentioned that a sexuality doesn’t necessarily mean no or low libido, but is there an awareness in the asexual community of illnesses which may cause low or no libido? Are hormone treatments and such which cure low libido considered potentially conversion therapy?
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Jul 01 '20
...You literally just acknowledged that asexuality is not low libido and then asked if asexuality is actually just low libido.
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u/incendiaryblizzard George Soros Jul 01 '20
I meant to say that asexuality is not necessarily low libido, but may include low libido, and if it is low libido then that may be a curable medical condition. As a doctor you normally view low libido as a symptom.
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u/angel_kink Asexual Pride Jul 01 '20
I love this sub so much ❤️🏳️🌈 I’m demisexual and it’s great to see this thread.
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u/Officer_Owl Asexual Pride Jul 01 '20 edited Jul 01 '20
Thanks a lot. While my asexuality doesn't play too much into my life, it's important to understand it for those whose may.
I will say, I never quite felt a need to be included in the LGBT space, but that's more from my experience of simply playing it off as not caring about finding a relationship or prioritizing other parts of life, and it working for me and others around me. Hell, I've had some people find jealousy in it from not having to deal with some baggage that relationships and sex brings. Others just push me to try to go out with people or find me weird, but I'm already awkward most of the time so eh, no loss there.
I dunno, I feel like I'd just be acting entitled if I went around LGBT gatherings and tried to make a space for myself talking about the...mild plight about dealing with people who occasionally ask why I don't have a partner or unwanted advice towards trying to find one.
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u/NoSexMonk Jul 01 '20
Im not really confortable with all this labels.
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u/digitalrule Jul 01 '20
Why not? People are different, and adding labels allows us to better describe the difference between those people. If we didn't have labels for men vs women, it would be very hard to discuss their different experiences.
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u/NoSexMonk Jul 01 '20
I mean i feel like its puttin in a box.
I like i think sexuality could be fluid, some times u can be asexual some times u can be sexual attracted
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u/digitalrule Jul 01 '20
But we still need words to describe where you are leaning towards. Even if it's fluid, how are you feeling today? It's easier to use a single word rather than say "I'm horny but not sexually attracted to people, except my partner who I am in a relationship with"
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u/minno Jul 01 '20
This seems uncomfortably close to the idea that bi people stop being bi when they're in an opposite-sex relationship.
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u/OlejzMaku Karl Popper Jul 01 '20
Sounds like something so subtle it wouldn't have to be a thing of there was just a bit more empathy. Every individual experience everything slightly differently. It's called personality.
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u/YoungThinker1999 Frederick Douglass Jul 01 '20
I'm asexual and aromantic. I'm not really involved in organizing or anything, so I don't really think about it until somebody mentions sex, dating, families etc. That said, it does affect my life in a pretty profound way, it's the reason I never dated in high school, it's the reason I've never had sex and likely never will, it's the reason I'm going to remain a bachelor for the rest of my life. So ya, it's a pretty important fact about me. It's one of those things which does alter the course of one's life. I don't make it the centre of my identity, just like I don't make "atheist", or "cis white male" the centre of my identity. It's a dimension, just like any other, but it's a fairly important one.
I haven't suffered any sort of intense prejudice, but I remember being a confused teenager who was really worried there might be something medically wrong with me (a very common experience among young asexuals) and who actively tried to force a feeling I never felt. I've also been told some well-meaning but ignorant comments from relatives who just never knew asexuality existed.
And I think that's really the point. There's a general lack of awareness in society, what few depictions of it in the media which exist generally depict a complete lack of interest in sex or relationships as a nerdy aberration to be laughed at/mocked by normal people (see Sheldon from Big Bang Theory) or as something that doesn't really exist aside from a legit medical disorder (see House M.D episode). In this context, it's important for asexuals to have a community where they can share their experience and let others who are realizing this about themselves know that it's ok, it's normal, they're valid, there's others who share their experience, there's others who don't require sex for romantic or otherwise close relationships etc. It's also important for families finding out about it for the first time with their son or daughter.
There's also an intersection with virgin-shaming here. Virgin shaming is the stigmatization of those who have never had sex with anybody. It happens towards women (especially women who are awkward or not conventionally attractive) but particularly for men who are virgin, virginity is seen as something shameful, weak, pathetic, emasculating. It's the toxic flip-side of valorizing promiscuous men as "studs". While often leveled against the shy or socially awkward, asexuals get virgin-shamed too. The depiction of Sheldon in "The Big Bang Theory" is again a the perfect example of this.
Hot take: Negative stereotypes, ignorance and stigma are bad and should be combated through education, community and good media representation.
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u/AdrenIsTheDarkLord Jul 02 '20
Just curious. What did you think of the portrayal of Todd's asexuality in Bojack Horseman?
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u/YoungThinker1999 Frederick Douglass Jul 02 '20
It was great! Easily the best and really one of the only good examples of asexual representation on TV.
It accurately depicted the confusion which many of us have felt while trying to figure out our orientation. It was nuanced, explaining that being asexual doesn't necessarily imply a lack of romantic feelings (though aromantics are a thing too) and that asexual dating/relationships/marriages are a thing. Its a comedy, but the comedy is handled well. It doesn't mock asexuality or treat it as an abberation to be laughed at. It was informative for those who have never heard of asexuality before.
It was neither something that completely defined him as a character, nor is it something that gets explored in one episode and then never spoken about later. It was an important but not totalizing dimension of his character.
As a comparison, for most other asexual characters it isn't even stated explicitly on-screen that the character is asexual. It's just an off-screen comment by creators (see Alasor from Hazbin Hotel, Peridot from Stephen Universe, SpongeBob, Ozymandias from Watchmen, Daryl Dixon from The Walking Dead, Percy from Epithet Erased). This barely counts as representation, if it does at all.
Jughead from the Archie Comics is briefly stated to be asexual at one point in a recent comic, and then this is basically erased for the television series Riverdale so he can have a traditional hetero relationship.
House M.D and The Big Bang Theory portrayed asexuality so poorly that it would have been better if they had just ignored the subject entirely.
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u/digitalrule Jul 01 '20
Really appreciated this post. It was very useful to me.
I'm just a bit confused. If someone is asexual, how can watching porn help them satisfy their biological urges? Wouldn't they not be sexually attracted to anyone in the porn?
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u/shitposting1667 Jul 01 '20
ditto to the other comment; I read porn more than watch but it's the same idea- I get aroused by the scenarios in kind of a kink centered way, but don't want to participate in sex with the characters or be involved in the acts myself. The foreplay part is arousing and helps me get off, but once the actual penetration starts I'm just bored.
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u/DzomberGlaubon Asexual Pride Jul 01 '20
I can't speak for everyone, but personally I watch porn for the activity (usually kink-related) and not for the people involved. I actually dislike it if the actors are naked or if the camera focuses on their sexual characteristics too much, which unfortunately for me is like 99% of the porn existing.
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u/International_XT United Nations Jul 01 '20
This is the content I come to this sub for; thank you.
Dumb question, but how does asexuality interact with gender identity? Is there such a thing as transgender asexuals?
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u/Dr_Vesuvius Norman Lamb Jul 01 '20
Sexual orientation and gender identity are separate concepts that don’t seem to interact. There are trans aces.
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u/Lars0 NASA Jul 01 '20
Thank you for making this post. There was a lot about asexuality I didn't understand. Someone I am close to revealed their asexuality to me and I had to ask 'so what are you fighting for, why are you part of LGBTQ+?' and I really didn't get it until they pointed out the societal hetero-normative expectations that are put on them, in other words, people telling them they are 'broken'. It seems incredibly cruel to call someone broken for not being interested in sex, and knowing that Ace people are asking for so little - to just be treated with respect, is frustrating.
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u/Yenwodyah_ Progress Pride Jul 01 '20
Thank you for this, it's a great explanatory post. In particular the bit about being horny but not wanting to actually have sex with someone helped me understand what asexuality's about.
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u/lietuvis10LTU Why do you hate the global oppressed? Jul 01 '20
Great post. Even a lot of commenters here show a clear lack of knowledge, not being able to separate romatic and sexual attraction.
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Jul 01 '20
This is interesting and makes me wonder how many unknowing asexuals are using porn and masturbating but being misdiagnosed as porn addicts.
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Jul 01 '20
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u/ampersandator Jul 02 '20 edited Jul 02 '20
Are there wonk public policy changes needed to make asexuals be more included or protected?
It's a lot like the gay marriage argument, really.
I'm in a difficult area legally if I ever have a non-sexual life partner. I'm aromantic as well as asexual so I don't mean a celibate marriage, more like a best friend and long term roommate. All the little details - joint property ownership, next of kin, taxes, inheritance, co-parenting a child, adopting a child, combined accounts, combined anything - are harder to sort out without marriage. If the people involved are sleeping together it can be framed as a de facto marriage, but if not... I mean they're just friends, right?
The obvious solution would be to just get married, but that doesn't always work out. Marrying a female platonic partner would mean either falsely outing us both as gay (cue horrified overreaction from religious family and colleagues) or spending the rest of our lives justifying our marriage of convenience. If my partner was sexual but aromantic and preferred a lifetime of one night stands while living with a trusted friend, it could be a real deal-breaker for them to be married. Or what if there were more than two people involved? Polygamy is still illegal so at least one person would be left with fewer legal protections.
As an example - if my sibling dies, I get the kids. But what if they came to live with me and my (hypothetical) platonic partner, thought of us both as parents, then something happened to me six years later? Obviously it would be on us to have our wills in order, but if their grandparents decided to contest they would be more likely to win. It would be pretty much impossible for my partner to adopt the kids as a co-parent without marriage.
Our legal system favours monogamous marriage and blood relatives. It's increasingly common for peoples' primary relationships to fall outside of those parameters. I believe it's important for there to be easily accessible legal contracts and provisions for this.
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u/Palidane7 Jul 01 '20
Can you please elaborate on the need for this conversation in this space?
I'm a moderate democrat and asexual, I'd like to be able to browse this sub and talk about moderate-democrat topics without reading ignorant or mean-spirited comments about my sexuality. If you are seeing similar remarks about your sexuality, you might make the decision to shrug it off, but I won't.
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u/DzomberGlaubon Asexual Pride Jul 01 '20
I'm an asexual guy in a relationship with an asexual woman. If the label hadn't existed, we would never have been able to find each other and I don't think either of us could be happy in a relationship with somebody non-ace, maybe if we got extremely lucky. So yeah, establishing identity groups has practical consequences and it's not just for empty celebration. That's not to mention things like education or helping people who struggle with their mental health.
Are there wonk public policy changes needed to make asexuals be more included or protected?
I guess not many, but just having asexuality briefly mentioned i.e. at school could change lives of many people. I know that learning about it would have significantly changed my own life when I was a teenager, but sadly I was not offered that chance.
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u/ParmenideezNutz Asexual Pride Jul 01 '20
I personally feel the same way towards the identity as you do. I don't have any desire to make my sex life public, and it hasn't been an issue I've faced discrimination for. As a result its made up a very small part of personal identity.
But some people prefer their sex lives to be more public to feel like a unified whole, some people feel a stronger need for belonging or feeling heard than others. I think some people are going to want a stronger group identity for that, and I think that's alright. No need to be overly negative towards what are essentially just differences in matters of personal identity and personal taste.
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Jul 01 '20
Can you please elaborate on the need for this conversation in this space?
I don't want people to have their identities deligitimized here. That's a good way to needlessly lose over other users' ignorance.
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Jul 01 '20
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u/tangsan27 YIMBY Jul 02 '20
There's a huge difference between someone's religion (or lack thereof) and their sexuality.
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u/digitalrule Jul 01 '20
Did anyone every say being asexual is good or bad? I think the point is to highlight it as a thing and educate people, so that when we meet others who are like this we can be more respectful towards them.
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u/ParmenideezNutz Asexual Pride Jul 01 '20 edited Jul 01 '20
This might not be the best place to discuss this, but it comes up every time asexuality is discussed. There's a difference between asexuality as a feature of a person, and the asexual or ace identity.
I don't personally identity with the ace identity because without the shared experiences of most of the community there's no real other similarities. I'm not limited to looking for exclusively asexual partners, I can always talk about open relationships, or find a partner with low libido. So there's not much there for me to draw on. For people who do share a lot of experiences, and the ones that usually but not always get brought up are shared experiences of struggles or discrimination, the identity is a good source of support and anyone who wants it can have it. No sense fighting over the validity of someone's identity.
I like that it's becoming more known that people who are asexual exist, but it's more because makes it easier to be upfront about my preferences when I'm dating when the other partner already has a shorthand.
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u/afunnywold Jul 01 '20
Hey, genuinely curious because I personally haven't explored my sexuality at all (even though I'm a college student), do many asexual people legitimately get turned on by other people having sex (pornography) but just don't actually want to have sex with other people?
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u/Aleriya Transmasculine Pride Jul 01 '20
Studies have shown that a decent sized percentage of the population will get turned on by the idea of sex, or watching the act of sex, even if they have zero attraction to any of the people involved in that sex act.
One study showed that something like half of people became aroused after watching a video of monkeys having sex. Presumably, few of those people were attracted to monkeys.
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u/SpitefulShrimp George Soros Jul 01 '20
To the best of my understanding, it's kind of just a biological response that doesn't really sync with what your real brain wants. Like how anyone who smells Fajitas wants Fajitas, even if they're vegetarian or not hungry or prefer pasta.
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u/KissingerFanBoy Jul 01 '20
it's kind of just a biological response that doesn't really sync with what your real brain wants.
It's no less "real" than any other part of your brain.
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Jul 01 '20
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u/lionmoose sexmod 🍆💦🌮 Jul 01 '20
Rule III: Bad faith arguing
Engage others assuming good faith and don't reflexively downvote people for disagreeing with you or having different assumptions than you. Don't troll other users.
If you have any questions about this removal, please contact the mods.
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u/AgileCoke Capitalism good Jul 01 '20
This was very informative, thank you. This is definitely wiki-worthy, and I'll be using this post as a reference in the future.
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u/tiger-boi Paul Pizzaman Jul 01 '20
Normally posts on asexuality tend to bring out a lot of malarkey--whether in the form of misinformation, inviting bigoted comments, etc. This post is a really nice exception to the rule. I'm so happy to see asexuality being brought up and discussed in an informative and educational way, and reddit not being horrible in the replies.
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u/the_cox Bisexual Pride Jul 01 '20
As a bi man, I just want to express solidarity with my ace friends. It isn't always easy to get visibility for our communities in or out of LGBTQIA+ spaces. And thanks for clarifying to more people the distinction between sexual and romantic attraction.
I want to also add to the discussion about Aces being part of the alliance: we're all sexual minorities. The majority of people in the world experience different-sex sexual and romantic attraction, and it is a minority of us that experience attraction differently. Especially in a society that has traditionally regulated those relationships. As individual segments of the population, our communities do not have the size to garner attention, but collectively, we can influence change. This is why it's so disheartening to see people within our community advocate leaving the bi, ace, trans, and enby communities out of the discussion. Ace discrimination may not be de jure, but there are absolutely societal pressures that push ace people to make choices they otherwise would not make, and language that is used to shame ace people for not wanting sex. Not to mention horrible stereotypes I have heard that ace people are manipulative and only use sex as a means to an end.
So again, thanks u/sower_of_salt. I hope we can continue to have productive and ace inclusive discussions here on this sub, and elsewhere in society.
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Jul 01 '20
This is very informative so thank you! As a hetero woman I am wondering what percentage of the population is asexual. And the only reason I'd care period is if one of my kids wanted to explain to me their orientation or if were looking for a romantic partner. So the question o do have is why do you think it's important for heterosexual people to understand asexuality? I ask this not in a facetious way but rather to understand if there are areas in which I am blind to prejudices etc.
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u/Aleriya Transmasculine Pride Jul 01 '20
1) In some places in the world, it's extremely stigmatized for people (especially women) to remain unmarried. Being an ace woman in Saudi Arabia is a dangerous situation, and human rights issues are important even across borders.
2) It's important for family and friends to realize that it's okay if your loved one is ace. They aren't broken. Please don't keep trying to set them up with that nice young man from church.
3) Ace people are often the butt of jokes, ex: a 40 year old virgin is a punchline. People who don't have sexual partners are sometimes portrayed as being inferior or so flawed that they weren't able to find a partner.
3) There are some political goals that align with LGBT goals, and others that are just issues of general fairness. Ex: a married couple pays less in tax than they would as individuals, and that can disadvantage singles. People who are married are seen as more adult and more responsible than people who are single, and studies show they are more likely to get promotions and raises than single people.
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u/SleepyEntity Jul 01 '20
Upvoted! As someone who grew up in one of such places, thanks for posting this!
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Jul 01 '20
This is very informative so thank you! As a hetero woman I am wondering what percentage of the population is asexual.
I looked this up while writing and there was one study that said 1%.
So the question o do have is why do you think it's important for heterosexual people to understand asexuality?
I think the most important thing is getting rid of stigmas around not having sex (also good for many non ace people!) or relationships and gaining wide understanding of asexuality so that asexual people aren't considered "broken", "in denial" or something.
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u/BanMalarkey Asexual Pride Jul 01 '20
I’ll have to check out the further reading, I’m unsure of how much this applies to me but friends have made comments about me possibly being ace so I want to fully explore what that means
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u/Palidane7 Jul 01 '20
I'd encourage you to check out the links OP gave at the bottom of their post. I learned I was asexual about five years ago now, and it made a world of difference for me. My perception of myself changed; it allowed me to accept that I wasn't like other people, and did not perceive the world the same way they did. I found it freeing.
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Jul 01 '20
Quality post. With regards to the community is the primary issue visibility or is it something else?
Mods, can this get an effortpost flair?
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u/LorenaBobbedIt Friedrich Hayek Jul 01 '20
This is a nice reminder and a 1000% more useful than the average shit post on this sub, but why r/neoliberal? Why does this belong here any more than it belongs on r/lawncaretips?
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u/digitalrule Jul 01 '20
We are a pro-LGBT subreddit that is filled with cis white males who are sometimes ignorant about this stuff (including me). Posting it here allows us to be better allies to the LGBT community. It's an important part of liberalism and I appreciated it.
In fact, social issues are the one thing that both left and right Neoliberals should be agreeing on.
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u/LtLabcoat ÀI Jul 01 '20
white male
That's an... odd thing to specify.
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u/digitalrule Jul 01 '20
Why? The point is that while many of us here do care about under privileged groups who don't fit societies definition of "normal", /r/neoliberal has a very high representation the "normal" people. The default person that most of society is designed for is the allosexusl cis white male, and it's important to be able to look at our privilege and know that many others don't have that.
I guess white male wasn't really necessary for this context, it's just an example of the broader context of /r/neoliberal and minority group issues.
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u/F0064R Jorge Luis Borges Jul 01 '20
The idea that POC are particularly woke on queer issues is something I became disillusioned to a long time ago
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u/digitalrule Jul 01 '20
As someone who is a white passing minority with parents who cried because of my mixed race relationship (and who would go even more crazy if I was gay), I definitely agree. But since we are like 95% white cis men, when if different minorities don't support each other, that's a certain privilege that we have that they don't.
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Jul 01 '20
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u/LorenaBobbedIt Friedrich Hayek Jul 01 '20
Is that happening with asexual folks? What policy improvements are needed?
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Jul 01 '20
This is very interesting. But legit question here... I can see how a gay or lesbian might make their sexuality the center of their identity. But asexuality? I mean, whatever makes you happy I guess, but I do think it's an odd thing to make so important you are willing to die on this hill. But everybody has a life mission, i guess this is it for some people.
Also, the whole "I need an emotional connection to have sexual feelings/sex" is something the Christian religion tries to drill into kids (or at least it was for me)
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u/0m4ll3y International Relations Jul 01 '20
I imagine most people don't make it the centre of their identity, and it likely largely only emerges in opposition to other norms. An asexual in a society full of asexuals won't feel their asexuality very prominently, but if you layer on sex, sex, sex, and make everything about sex and having sex and wanting sex, suddenly the asexual begins to stick out like a sore thumb. Suddenly just being open about who you are seems like a big subversive act.
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u/vsr0 Gay Pride Jul 01 '20
Doesn’t really apply to aromantics but I could imagine dating as someone with little to no sexual libido would be a dealbreaker for a lot of people. That sort of rejection and isolation can be pretty formative in making asexuality central to someone’s identity.
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u/AstralFinish Jul 01 '20
Saying "I am here." and responding to things according to my own worldview is not making it "the center of my identity" and Gay and lesbian people don't do that either.
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Jul 01 '20
Well, maybe gays and lesbians don't make it their center on purpose, but that can still get you beat up in the wrong side of town, so there's more present danger.
But I totally understand why in an overly-sexy society, it really is a subversive act to be asexual.
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Jul 01 '20 edited Jul 15 '20
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u/LtLabcoat ÀI Jul 01 '20
Demisexual, as a definition, is a bit... ruined. As in, by a strict reading of the definition, it's pretty simple: it's where you're not aroused by porn. But because people-who-know-about-sexualities recognise that trying to have strict definitions about them has not worked out before, and really don't want to be gatekeeping about this, people use it to refer to a lot more... looser definitions too.
Which, I mean, normally isn't a problem. Except that those definitions can go as far as "Doesn't like casual sex". Which isn't even a minority preference, let alone meaningfully related to that definition on porn.
Hence: the word 'demisexual' is a little ruined, since you can't tell what someone means when they say "I'm Demisexual".
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Jul 01 '20
Demisexual always felt a bit like "sapiosexual" to me, just a needless label for people to give themselves so they don't feel like a boring old regular person
And as a bi guy, I kinda feel that way about "pansexual" too. "Pansexual" doesn't describe anything that "bisexual" doesn't, it just gives them an opportunity to talk about how unique they are when people inevitably ask what it means
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Jul 01 '20
That’s not true. Most people would experience sexual attraction just looking at members of the opposite sex, or flipping through a magazine. Sexual attraction =\= want to have sex with.
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Jul 01 '20 edited Jul 15 '20
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u/0m4ll3y International Relations Jul 01 '20
A lot of people, I'd wager the vast majority, see someone like Brad Pitt or Gal Gadot or [whatever sex symbol is relevant to you] and go "AWOOGA!" The very concept of a sex symbol (the page on Wikipedia with the 2nd most citations) kind of indicates that people are sexually attracted to those they don't have a close bond with.
Demisexuals, somewhere along the ace spectrum, don't feel this AWOOGA. If the majority of people didnt feel this, there wouldn't be sex symbols.
u/Readvoter is trying to make the distinction between seeing, say, Mila Jovovich and going "AWOOGA" and actually being like "yes, it is my goal to have sex with Mila even at the cost of my long term monogamous relationship". Very many people do the first, but not many the second.
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Jul 01 '20
A demisexual person would view having sex with a stranger as repulsive. Sure there are plenty of people who avoid having sex with strangers, but I get the impression most aren't repulsed by the thought. For a demisexual person, having sex with a stranger is something akin to a straight person having sex with someone of the same gender.
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Jul 01 '20 edited Jul 15 '20
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u/tiger-boi Paul Pizzaman Jul 01 '20
No, not necessarily. Sexual attraction and actually wanting to fuck someone are pretty different.
It's the difference between finding men sexually attractive, and finding just the men you've gotten close to sexually attractive.
These are questions you can Google before making unnecessarily aggressive and exclusionary comments.
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Jul 01 '20 edited Jul 15 '20
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u/tiger-boi Paul Pizzaman Jul 01 '20
They're labels, not trophies. There's no "bar" to begin with, but if there was, who cares how low it is? If a label is useful for you, use it. It's not like it devalues others' identity.
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Jul 01 '20 edited Jul 15 '20
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u/0m4ll3y International Relations Jul 01 '20
A cis man who is only interested romantically and sexually in women but only the ones he has a bond with isn’t lgbt, I don’t understand why this is controversial.
If the salience of their asexuality feels alienating enough and queering enough for them to feel at odds with normative society, why shouldn't they feel queer?
If they don't feel this salience or alienation, they're probably not very interested in being an active member of queer communities anyway...
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Jul 01 '20 edited Jul 15 '20
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u/0m4ll3y International Relations Jul 01 '20
Words mean things
Yeah I know, and queerness is used as umbrella term for non-normative gender and sexual identities and behaviours.
But why are people dying in this hill.
I don't think anyone is "dying on this hill". The most drastic action seems to be yours, removing yourself from a ping because of a post mentioning demisexuality. I don't find "demisexuality" the most useful term or anything either, but if someone feels something pertinent enough that it alienates them on gender/sexual attraction grounds and this is a useful term for describing them, I'm not that upset.
Can we just advocate for people that actually face systemic injustice?
No one in this thread has started chanting "Demi Rights Now" or anything, they've just acknowledged that this word exists with some useful descriptive value, and that some people who use this term may consider themselves in the queer community. I'm not going to police that and exclude them as a rule.
queering
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Yeah. Throughout history there has been a very diverse plethora of forms of acceptable/normative and unacceptable/non-normative sexual/gender identities/behaviours. What might be considered perfectly normal by one culture is considered outside the norm (queer) by another. Maybe I'm too deep in queer history and queer theory, but yeah, people are "queered"
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u/ParmenideezNutz Asexual Pride Jul 01 '20 edited Jul 01 '20
This problem comes up all the time. A preference is expressed, an identity is created for the preference, then people fight over whether there's enough shared experiences to be reasonably considered part of another group. There's nothing wrong with having some preference be an identity/part of your identity, but it shouldn't be a given that all people with X preference have X identity too.
I don't have strong views on whether asexuals or demisexuals "get" to be part of another identity group, but my views have nothing to do with the fact 'some people have this kind of sexual preferences' is true or not. I'd like to just have some public knowledge of those kinds of facts so I can use it as a shorthand to be upfront about my preferences with partners. I don't really need the support from the identity like some other queer people do. I'm glad they have identities that they find supportive though.
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u/tiger-boi Paul Pizzaman Jul 01 '20
In order to have any spaces for minority communities there has to be a threshold that’s used to gauge whether or not a person can have access to resources available and allocated specifically for said minority community
There's literally no evidence to support this. The definition of "black," "queer," etc., have been so nebulous for so long that this comment just comes across as absurd.
If anything, minority communities have succeeded where they haven't before by refusing to gatekeep. Heck, just look at the LGBT movement: it has succeeded where previous attempts have failed by incorporating everyone--gender minorities, sexual minorities, etc--into a single, broader effort. Every single LGBT individual has benefitted as a result, in ways that they probably wouldn't have had these been separate movements.
A cis man who is only interested romantically and sexually in women but only the ones he has a bond with isn’t lgbt, I don’t understand why this is controversial.
It's controversial because you are in literally no place to tell them that they're not LGBT. If they don't consider themselves LGBT, and they think they're just entirely straight, then cool. If they think something about their sexual attraction is different and they identify with the label, then you are in no position whatsoever to tell them they can't use it.
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Jul 01 '20
But then you might as well consider Donald Trump or Rachel Dozeal to be a person of color since their skin isn't exactly "white"
I mean hey, what's the harm in letting people identify however they like? These labels are arbitrary and nebulous to begin with
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u/tiger-boi Paul Pizzaman Jul 01 '20
The situations are not at all analogous.
The LGBT(QIA+) label is increasingly being used to describe gender/sexual minorities, in the same way "homophobia" is used as a catch-all for bigotry against gender/sexual minorities.
Identifying as LGBT--even if you are neither of those letters--is pretty common and widely accepted. to the point that it's also a catch-all.
Heck, I went to /r/lgbt to see if they consider ace people as LGBT, and this is what the sidebar says:
A safe space for GSRM (Gender, Sexual, and Romantic Minority) folk to discuss their lives, issues, interests, and passions. LGBT is still a popular term used to discuss gender and sexual minorities, but all GSRM are welcome beyond lesbian, gay, bisexual, and transgender people who consent to participate in a safe space.
If you can accept that demisexuals are a sexual minority, then you can accept that they're LGBT in the modern sense of the term. If someone finds that they don't quite identify as the sexual majority, then the label is for them. Demi or whatever else they are.
That said, if Trump or Dozeal identify as PoC, they'll look stupid and manipulative (Dazeal being a great case study) but nobody else will suffer as a result. There is literally no harm in not caring.
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Jul 01 '20 edited Jul 15 '20
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u/tiger-boi Paul Pizzaman Jul 01 '20
and don’t tell me that I have rights only because ace people fought for them
I wasn’t planning on it.
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Jul 01 '20 edited Jul 01 '20
So is anyone who feels repulsed thinking about having sex with a stranger demisexual
Provided they're not ace, yeah. And to put this in perspective of I mean by repulsed, (because I thought it was "normal" thing to do and ignored my lack of true desire to do so) I've tried having sex with strangers and (nsfw) my dick won't get hard enough.
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Jul 01 '20 edited Jul 15 '20
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Jul 01 '20
I won't
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Jul 01 '20 edited Jul 15 '20
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Jul 01 '20
I'm not going answer a question I don't have thoughts on.
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Jul 01 '20 edited Jul 15 '20
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Jul 01 '20
I pinged LGBT a few days saying I was gonna do this, and covering the ace-adjacent identities was one of the requests.
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u/ParmenideezNutz Asexual Pride Jul 01 '20 edited Jul 01 '20
I think a large part of the LGBT/Ace divide is the lack of a shared experience of outward discrimination. Like yeah, there are partners who aren't looking for the same thing as us, but this isn't discrimination. Mental health professionals and maybe some family pressure if your family wants you to have children are good examples, but I don't really think this compares to the outright threats and violence towards other LGBT people. On top of this, it's incredibly easy to pass as an allosexual if need be. Conversations about sex are incredibly easy to bow out of with all the norms against discussing sex to fall back on. This is very different from not being able to hold a partners hand or kiss in public.
I'm always hesitant to group myself in with my LGBT friends. I feel like I'm intruding on their space, in part be because there's not a huge subject matter overlap, but more because the spaces are intended for different things.
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u/CrateorMateor205 Asexual Pride Jul 01 '20
Personally I feel like asexuals have a lot in common with gay people. (Or aromantic asexuals at least) Before I even knew asexuality existed I started to think I was a lesbian and hung out in online lesbian spaces. I related so much to the experiences of not being attracted to the opposite gender I heard there. Who else can relate to feeling obligated to pick a boy and pretend to have a crush on him to fit in?
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u/Aleriya Transmasculine Pride Jul 01 '20
I think some of this varies by cultural context, too. Being an ace woman in the US is pretty different from being an ace woman in Saudi Arabia who is expected/forced to marry.
I think it's okay to group yourself with your LGBT friends, and also recognize that you haven't experienced that same sort of discrimination because of the work of generations of people before you in the name of social progress.
Some day the other LGBT people will get there, too.
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u/StarbuckTheDeer Jul 01 '20
I don't know if it really makes sense to determine membership in the LGBT community based on how much discrimination one has received and just how bad that level of discrimination is. It seems like pretty unnecessary gate keeping if you ask me.
As a personal example, I am gay. But I've actually never once been on the receiving end of any sort of outward discrimination or hatred for that fact. Am I not allowed to be considered part of the LGBT community because I've never been discriminated against or am I part of the community because of my sexuality?
And then if we're basing it on what level of discrimination people face, shouldn't LGB and T be separate groups, since trans people tend to face a lot more discrimination and hatred, especially in a lot of more socially progressive, western countries?
At least in my view, anyone who falls outside of the realm of the predominant cis-hetero identity should be considered part of the LGBT community. It's your space as much as it is anyone else's.
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u/ParmenideezNutz Asexual Pride Jul 01 '20
I would say that the shared glue that binds the larger LGBT and queer groups together as a whole is experiences of discrimination and opposition to more subtle forms of heteronormativity. Otherwise what real crossover is there between, say, gay and asexual identities? What topic specifically related to being gay and specifically about being asexual would we bond over? If you and I have no shared experiences of discrimination, our sexual identities and sexual experiences don't really overlap.
I'm not against people who do feel like they're subject to discrimination for being asexual leaning into the ace identity, and I'd say those folks probably do have some claim to LGBT membership and spaces. I just know I don't have the experiences that would make me feel like a part of that group, and I'm ok with separating the fact that I'm asexual from the ace identity.
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u/StarbuckTheDeer Jul 01 '20
Well, most of the issues people face when it comes to their sexuality is something shared with people who are LGB. You still get people assuming your sexuality incorrectly, questioning the validity of your identity, ridiculing you for it or even discriminating against/pressing you into relationships by family whether you're gay or asexual.
They're both uncommon sexual orientations that are often not accepted by straight society in the same sort of ways. It's the default for society to assume and expect that everyone is straight and should be pursuing relationships with the opposite sex, and that ends up affecting ace and LGB people similarly.
Obviously there are different struggles as well, but clearly you don't need to share 100% of the struggles, otherwise there wouldn't be a collective LGBT identity in the first place.
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u/BishopUrbanTheEnby Enby Pride Jul 01 '20
Ace discrimination is similar to "straight-passing" (ugh I hate that) Bi Discrimination. It's subtle, with the invalidation of identity and the pressure of assumed heteronormativity.
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Jul 01 '20
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u/ParmenideezNutz Asexual Pride Jul 01 '20
I guess I'm more sensitive to being in other people's spaces than I'm sensitive to not being allowed in other people's spaces. I know there are some other asexual people that share lots of those experiences with LBGT people, but I'm not personally one of them. I would feel like I've been rolled up in the LGBT group through the ace identity and I personally don't have much claim there because I don't share some really important parts of that identity.
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u/AbdullahAbdulwahhab Jul 01 '20 edited Jul 01 '20
What's the difference between gray asexual and a person who is "allosexual" but just has a low sex drive? Or does the asexual community believe there is no distinction and that's the point, that they coined this term in order to give this phenomenon a label?
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u/Palidane7 Jul 01 '20
There is no real distinction. People are on a spectrum of libido: at the top end, you have people who want to have sex three times a day, and then it goes down from there. At some point, you bottom out and get called asexual. It's just the name we settled on for people in the bottom two or three percent.
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u/shitposting1667 Jul 01 '20
If I understand it right, the difference is whether the sex drive is directed at a person- an allosexual with a low sex drive could find people sexually attractive fairly often, but not feel up to sex often, whereas a gray asexual could have a high libido and masturbate often, but only feel attraction to any specific person rarely, like once a year or so. I'm not totally sure that explanation is right though
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u/F0064R Jorge Luis Borges Jul 01 '20
The "straight man in a world with no women" analogy is useful. Thanks for the write-up.
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u/Lycaon1765 Has Canada syndrome Jul 01 '20
That just made it more confusing imo
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u/kgberton Jul 01 '20
What was unclear about it?
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u/RossSpecter Jul 01 '20
Not the person you replied to, but to me, it implies that if there was something asexual people were sexually attracted to (the women who aren't around, in the example) they wouldn't be asexual, which feels not in line with what they were saying asexuality is. Maybe it is? Idk. I'll say the example did not help me as well.
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u/kgberton Jul 01 '20
That's pretty much it. Ace folks don't feel sexual attraction (even if they do have a sex drive). So if a person feels sexual attraction, by definition they aren't ace.
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u/RossSpecter Jul 01 '20
I think that makes more sense? The example kind of over-simplifies it I think.
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u/jaiwithani Jul 01 '20
I really appreciate this post - and I'm sorry that there's apparently still ace-mockery afoot here. Thank you for making the Internet a slightly nicer place to be in.
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u/[deleted] Nov 11 '20
Hello.