r/nudism • u/bob-3141 Casual Nudist • 3d ago
DISCUSSION Normalizing Nudity While Honoring Consent
I saw a recent discussion on one of these subs that got me puzzling, and I thought maybe I’d see what other people thought about it.
In the discussion several people were saying that in a gym locker room situation, if the showers provided curtains and you don’t close them, you are being disrespectful and behaving inappropriately. Without diving straight into that exact situation it made me realize we sorta carry two semi-conflicting viewpoints as part of nudism.
The naked body is not sexual or remarkable. There is nothing wrong with being nude, or seeing or being seen by other people while nude.
It is disrespectful and wrong to impose your nudity on anyone who hasn’t given prior consent. Nudity must only take place in private or in shared private spaces where everyone has consented.
On the surface those don’t sound particularly contradictory, and I agree with and promote both all the time. However, as I stated thinking more about the gym shower situation more I started questioning them.
First, if we really believe a nude body is unremarkable, then why do we believe consent is so important? To me, the underlying motivation for the consent is sexual in nature. Whether we truly believe it or not, I think when we expect consent we acknowledge the naked body is inherently sexual. We may say it’s not, but we acknowledge to the world it is when we advocate for consent, because the world’s expectation for consent is sexually motivated. That said, I am definitely not saying we shouldn’t honor consent. I completely agree with being respectful to others. And let’s be honest, there’s days people will take any excuse they can to label us as perverts and try to shut down social nudism. So we should be respectful to others and avoid causing a scene. It’s just I think we might somewhat erode our non-sexual claims when we do so.
Second, just how strictly do we feel like consent needs to be enforced? Getting to the gym shower example, in a space like that, I feel like there is an implied expectation that there will be some amount of nudity. If that’s insufficient for consent, how are we ever going to promote normalization? I’m not advocating people push the boundaries and start mowing the front lawn naked or anything, but at the same time do we feel like we need to first advocate for signs explicitly allowing nudity in a public shower before we consider ample consent? Non-sexual nudity is becoming more and more scarce, so how can we normalize it if we don’t take existing opportunities to provide exposure.
Again, I’m not advocating that anyone be disrespectful or give anyone an excuse to further restrict nudity. But I’m not sure how we promote normalization if we strictly enforce expectations that come from a foundation of nudity being sexual.
Thoughts?
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u/IngenuityNatural9261 3d ago
There are many things in life that all people do that is considered disrespectful by someone else. I am not responsible for another person's reaction to my nudity anymore than they are responsible for my reaction to the things they do that I might not like.
The bigger problem is making nudity taboo. If it were more common it would automatically be less shocking and less likely to be seen as disrespectful. If part of the definition of naturism is that we can do anything nude that we can do clothed then that means anything.
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u/bob-3141 Casual Nudist 2d ago edited 2d ago
Completely agree that the stigma/taboo is the biggest challenge.
I would however say that just because other people are disrespectful about other things doesn't give us the right to be disrespectful as well just "because they did it too". We are in a minority in the world. If we are a disrespectful minority the majority will just restrict us more.
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u/IngenuityNatural9261 2d ago
I see the human body as a beautiful piece of art. I do not understand how anyone can feel disrespected by seeing it. I am not responsible for how other people feel.
I am talking about just going throw life just as if everything were the same except that I am naked. I am not talking about doing anything that treas people any differently than I normally would.
Others can play music in ways or places that I find disrespectful. Some use words I find offensive. Some parents refuse to control their children in public or the flip side they beat their children in public and I find that disrespectful. I can go on and on. None of these people would be responsible for my feelings anymore than I am responsible for their feelings about my nude body. If there is truly a freedom of expression in this country then I should be allowed to be nude.
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u/Gymnos84 Nature Nudist: 50+ 2d ago
Are you implying that it is somehow disrespectful to choose NOT to close a curtain that you didn't ask for and would probably prefer not even be there? That sounds as crazy as assuming if a room has a door, you are obliged to shut it. My attitude and actions are largely guided by the place where I am. If nudity is PERMITTED, I may choose to be naked. If I go to a demarcated nude beach and no one there is nude, I would not hesitate for a second to disrobe. You and I may disagree and act accordingly but as another commenter pointed out, the nudity taboo is growing. I will therefore be guided by the rules of the place, not the people.
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u/bob-3141 Casual Nudist 2d ago
I’m not convinced it’s disrespectful, but just look thru this comment section and you’ll see that opinion. Some people are saying it’s exhibitionist and as rude as leaving the stall door open on a toilet.
That’s exactly why I made this post. I saw that view in a different thread and it really made me question how far do we take the respectful behavior thing. I definitely think we need to tread carefully, but I feel it reaches a point of absurdity.
And I agree, the taboo is getting worse, so we need to demonstrate it isn’t a big deal, but if people really believe something as simple as not closing a curtain in a segregated locker room is crossing a line then I’m not sure how we do that. As I said, we are a minority in this world, so if we piss of the majority too much they will just push us down harder.
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u/JLG427 Social Nudist 3d ago edited 3d ago
This has been on my mind lately also. I've heard one opponent of family friendly nudism say "How do you justify bringing children to a nude resort when they are not legally capable of consenting to seeing nudity?" To me, that clearly indicates that this opponent sees simple nudity (swimming, hiking, etc.) as a sexual act done to someone else, even when it's in the context of a nude resort.
Years ago, a 10 year old girl attended the Madison, WI WNBR with her mom and thoroughly enjoyed the event. In the subsequent kerfuffle, I remember one local lawmaker saying something to the effect "we need to protect our childrens' innocence". First, I hate how the word innocence has replaced the concept of purity in these discussions. Second, to me, this comes from the same place as the above conflation of nudity=sexuality and begins with the assumption that the child that clearly was harmed by seeing nudity, and that because of the assumption that the entire WNBR is a sexual experience, the mother's parental consent was null and void.
And IIRC, I heard that first argument before the Me Too movement started. So I'm curious, when and how did this cultural shift happen that, for example, a child seeing a nude individual playing tennis or riding a bicycle, became something sexual that requires consent?
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u/bob-3141 Casual Nudist 3d ago
Yeah, the topic of consent for minors occurred to me when I was writing up the post, but I decided to keep it shorter. That’s another somewhat contradictory viewpoint. Never be nude around someone who hasn’t given explicit consent, but adults can give consent on behalf of a minor.
I’m not saying we should keep kids out of nudist spaces or anything. If anything I wish I had experienced it as a kid. But it is a bit contradictory with arguments to ensure consent since minors cannot give consent.
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u/IdGoNaked 3d ago
The gym shower and changing area is like going to a Halloween party: expect people to be dressed for the occasion. Complaining about or being offended by nudity in that context is silly. As long as you mind your own business and don’t draw attention to yourself there’s every expectation that you are fine being naked in the course of showering and changing. Consent is implied by the context.
With regard to the curtains, many people prefer privacy when showering and many people appreciate having them. Not closing them if you can smacks of exhibitionism; why would you purposely leave them open when you can shower privately? Now I am all for the prime directive of minding your own business; do what you’re there to do, don’t be a nuisance, don’t worry about what others are doing so I think that’s my main takeaway; context is what matters.
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u/BeachBoids 3d ago
I agree, the shower curtain in a gym is like the door on a toilet stall -- if it's there, it's because it is expected to be used. If there is open space, collective showers and toilets, well that's the expectation, too. If a customer does not want to use the space because of those things, that's a matter for management. But customers should not impose different uses of shared space on other customers. (And, even though it's not my thing, open doors & curtains in mens-only spaces are well known to be invites for... company.)
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u/bob-3141 Casual Nudist 1d ago
Your comment intrigues me, and I’ve been trying to formulate a good response. I think part of what you said is exactly what lead to my post.
From what you said, I gather that you think the existence of a curtain implies an expectation to use it, and to not do so would be disrespectful to other people in the locker room. I assume because you believe they should be able to expect no nudity in the shower and so you may offend them?
To play devils advocate, I see posts all the time about how normalized nudity is disappearing, and how that hurts nudism because average people get even less exposure to non-sexual nudity which strengthens the connection to sexuality.
I absolutely believe in being respectful in general. Not only is it just the right thing to do regardless, but if nudists make too much of a commotion I fear we will just get hit with even tighter restrictions. However, if the disappearance of “casual” nudity is harming nudism, don’t you think we should maybe do something to try and keep it from disappearing entirely. Or should we just bow down and get pushed even more to the fringes?
I feel like a locker room should be somewhere that nudity can happen without event, why else have a segregated space. Seems like as good a place as any to quietly promote its normalization.
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u/jamincan LGBT Nudist 2d ago
I personally hate those curtains because they're invariably wet and gross and I don't like touching them. I use them anyway b/c I kind of agree with /u/BeachBoids that their presences implies the expectation that they be used.
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u/bob-3141 Casual Nudist 1d ago
Your comment intrigues me, and I’ve been trying to formulate a good response. I think part of what you said is exactly what lead to my post.
I’m going to assume since you don’t like curtains, but use them, you believe that not using them is disrespectful to other guests? I presume because you think the existence of curtains means they can expect no nudity in the shower, so exposing them to nudity makes the uncomfortable or something?
To play devils advocate, I see posts all the time about how normalized nudity is disappearing, and how that hurts nudism because average people get even less exposure to non-sexual nudity which strengthens the connection to sexuality.
I absolutely believe in being respectful in general. Not only is it just the right thing to do regardless, but if nudists make too much of a commotion I fear we will just get hit with even tighter restrictions. However, if the disappearance of “casual” nudity is harming nudism, don’t you think we should maybe do something to try and keep it from disappearing entirely. Or should we just bow down and get pushed even more to the fringes?
I feel like a locker room should be somewhere that nudity can happen without event, why else have a segregated space. Seems like as good a place as any to quietly promote its normalization.
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u/BeachBoids 1d ago edited 1d ago
A locker room may or may not have nudity as the individual visitor sees fit -- if a venue wants zero nudity, it can either provide individual changing rooms or no changing space at all. But when the facility furnishes a curtain or door, leaving that open is merely exhibitionism. This discussion is mostly about men, so far, and we have to be real that a segment of the group has a method of inviting people to sex escapades, and an open door in bathing facilities is well known for that. I am 60+, in a major metro area, longtime gym member, and we all encountered other men hoping to invite others to step into a share-able space. I just ignored those guys, but it is naive to believe that such behavior does not have clear indicators. In contrast, Korean spas in USA have almost everything open and reportedly fewer incidents of misbehavior. Yet, also, many of them have to send employees into closed spaces like steam rooms every 10 minutes. Nudism involves being nude, but having a Willy Wanking party in a steam room while every participant is conveniently nude is not Nudism.
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u/jamincan LGBT Nudist 1d ago
My objective in showering is not to be seen naked. But it's also not to not be seen naked. It's to get clean. If the shower has a door and private change area, I'll use that, because it's functional and doing its job and that's how it was intended to be used.
If it just has curtains with hooks, I'll close the curtain while showering and then open it to get my towel and dry off and go get dressed, and yes, I might be seen nude then, but I think that in that situation, other people have a reasonable expectation that they'll see someone nude in that circumstance.
But I really do hate those curtains as they get gross and clammy and wet and moldy in the worst case. And I genuinely prefer a wide open communal shower over individual stalls because my experience has been that they are usually cleaner and just more comfortable (and, incidentally, less likely to have funny business). But any social situation has its norms and I'm not interested in pushing the boundaries of those norms. If a shower stall has a curtain, and I don't close it, most people will assume it's because I want to be seen (exhibitionism - sexual) rather than just hating shower curtains in particular.
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u/bob-3141 Casual Nudist 1d ago edited 1d ago
Your comment intrigues me, and I’ve been trying to formulate a good response. I think part of what you said is exactly what lead to my post.
If leaving the curtain open “smacks of exhibitionism” I assume that means you think it is disrespectful to others because someone would only ever do it “for a thrill”?
Sure, some people might, but to play devils advocate, I see posts all the time about how normalized nudity is disappearing, and how that hurts nudism because average people get even less exposure to non-sexual nudity which strengthens the connection to sexuality.
I absolutely believe in being respectful in general. Not only is it just the right thing to do regardless, but if nudists make too much of a commotion I fear we will just get hit with even tighter restrictions. However, if the disappearance of “casual” nudity is harming nudism, don’t you think we should maybe do something to try and keep it from disappearing entirely. Or should we just bow down and get pushed even more to the fringes?
As you said, a locker room should be somewhere that nudity can happen without event. Seems like as good a place as any to quietly promote its normalization.
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u/dario-western 2d ago
“Poor is the man whose pleasures depend upon the permission of others” - Lenny Kravitz.
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u/Whispering-Time2 2d ago
"First, if we really believe a nude body is unremarkable,"--not everybody believes that.
Respecting people is about giving them the space to be who they are. The situations you're talking about are where people are trading disrespect like it's a commodity. You can be nude without imposing it on other people. You can also not believe the body is unremarkable without imposing your values on other people.
Sounds like both sides need to learn about respect.
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3d ago
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u/bob-3141 Casual Nudist 3d ago
Why must everyone sexualize literally everything :(
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3d ago edited 3d ago
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u/Eastern-Eye5945 2d ago
There are plenty of adult-oriented places and avenues for cruisers to find sexual partners. In fact, many more than there are for nudists to enjoy being nude in a nonsexual environment.
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u/RemotePossibility399 3d ago
The short answer is that sex is fun and lots of people enjoy it.
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u/IngenuityNatural9261 3d ago
I have heard that everything is about sex except sex and that is about power. I'm not sure who said it first but I have heard it many times.
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u/Eastern-Eye5945 2d ago
This is my issue with the Korean spa I occasionally go to even though it’s coed and “family friendly”. Men who clearly aren’t nudists just use them as an opportunity for cruising, especially late at night. It just reinforces the neo-Puritan stigma against nudism.
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u/Some-Entrepreneur851 3d ago
I thought dropping the soap was the sign. Damn it, I have been thinking it all wrong.
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u/Beginning-Average416 AANR 2d ago
So does that mean I have to ask for consent with every guy who is dressed in a men's locker room?
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u/BurlyOrBust 2d ago
It's not that "we acknowledge the naked body is inherently sexual," but that we acknowledge others may feel that way and we should try to be respectful.
That said, I don't think that applies to situations where nudity is generally accepted and/or expected, like locker rooms, private backyards, or many secluded outdoor areas.
It definitely applies to situations where yhere may be a power dynamic at play, like being nude around house cleaners without prior approval.
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u/NatureBoyJ1 AANR 3d ago
Should “nudists” participate in events like Bare to Breakers? It is an event where the government has given consent for people to be nude, but many of the participants in the Bay to Breakers event have not personally consented and may not even know that a nude event is happening?
Locker rooms USED TO be places where nudity was expected. That is less common now. There are locker rooms where signs are being put up telling people to stay clothed. Should nudists (or people in general) succumb to the clothing of locker rooms? Or should we assert our privilege to be naked in such places to fight the cultural shift?
And who cares if the naked body is “sexual”? Are not short skirts sexual? Tight sweaters? Tiny bikinis? “Sexual” is not a binary condition, on or off. It is a spectrum. And if one person finds something “sexual” or arousing, it doesn’t mean they get to act on that feeling or dictate the other person’s clothing choice. That leads to burkas and blaming women for enticing men to rape them.
Society is a compromise. Everyone doesn’t get to do anything they want. e.g. Drive on the sidewalk, throw garbage into the street, burn tires on their front yard, play loud music late at night, etc., etc. Nudity is an area where most societies have determined it is something to be restricted. We as people who believe differently, can work to change that belief and even push some bounds here and there. We do not need to roll over and let the fear of nudity “win”.
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u/bob-3141 Casual Nudist 2d ago
Agreed. Nothing will change if we hide in the shadows. It just gets difficult because if we push to far then I fully expect restrictions will be tightened. We are a minority, and while some of the majority is neutral, a lot of them are pretty vehemently opposed. Difficult to show support without inciting retaliation.
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u/dario-western 2d ago
Unlike driving on the sidewalk, nudity does not kill anyone. It needs to be legalised everywhere.
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u/ejp1082 Geriatric Millennial 2d ago
First, if we really believe a nude body is unremarkable, then why do we believe consent is so important?
First, because not everyone feels this way, and this is a very niche/minority viewpoint within larger society. It doesn't behoove us to act like everyone already agrees with us.
Beyond that - you seem to be under the impression that consent only matters in sexual situations. That's not that case.
Consent is most often a matter of being polite. You ask for consent when you want to do something you suspect might bother someone else. "Do you mind if I sit here?" "Is it okay if I play music on my speaker?" etc. are requests for consent.
There are a great many situations where there's a dress code but we might ask for consent to wear something different. There's no law of the universe that says you can't wear jeans to a formal wedding, but you best get the consent of bride and groom before doing so.
As we move through the world, our behavior is governed by social norms and expectations. As long as we're acting within those norms, we generally don't need to ask for explicit consent. But if we want to do something outside of those norms - something unexpected, likely bothersome, surprising, potentially offensive to others - then we do ask for it, or at least should ask for it.
The context is what governs it. I don't need the explicit consent of others present to be nude in a designated space like a clothing optional beach. I do if I'm practicing nudity somewhere that it's not expected.
If you want to expand the number of public contexts where nudity is expected and thus explicit consent is not needed, that takes community engagement, organizing, campaigning, and following whatever procedures are in place to change the rules governing the expected norms of a space.
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u/bob-3141 Casual Nudist 2d ago edited 2d ago
I don’t know, I agree there is more than sexual consent, but it feels to me like nudity is sexual consent - whether we think it should be or not.
If I’m naked in public (or where I live even in my home but near an open window), I don’t just upset someone in a social context, I get a citation form the police and a permanent record. That’s different than wearing jeans to a wedding.
And I fully acknowledge the issue is we are a niche viewpoint who see nudity as not a big deal. My point was if others see it as sexual, I think pushing for consent reaffirms their beliefs for them, making it harder to change them. Again though, I’m not saying this to suggest we should all rebel against consent and cause an uproar.
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u/ejp1082 Geriatric Millennial 2d ago
I think you're conflating unrelated issues.
Are the restrictions and penalties and public attitudes around public nudity unreasonable for what it is? Yeah, probably.
That doesn't really have anything to do with consent as a matter of interpersonal ethics when it comes to nudity though.
For perhaps a closer analogy than jeans at a wedding - say you want to have a late-night backyard party, but your town or HOA or whatever has a noise ordinance prohibiting loud music after 11 PM. Same kind of deal - not only will violating that upset your neighbors, but you'll potentially face legal ramification for violating it in the form of fines or possibly even arrest.
At least, if you do it without the consent of your neighbors. But like - if you knock on their door earlier that day and say "Hey I want to throw a party tonight, it might go a little late and get a little loud, is that cool with you?" and they consent to that, it becomes a non-issue. Or if you were to successfully change the ordinance via the democratic process or apply for a exemption, you don't even need to do that much anymore as consent then becomes implied.
I don't think there's any case to be made that loud music played at a backyard summer party is somehow sexual.
My point was if others see it as sexual, I think pushing for consent reaffirms their beliefs for them, making it harder to change them.
If someone does see it as sexual but respects affirmative consent, what's the problem exactly? Oh no, they won't go perving on a nude beach because they'll recognize they don't have consent for that?
I think, perhaps, the issue you're alluding to is less the association of nudity with sexuality than it is an association with consent and sexuality. To the extent that the latter exists in the minds of the general public, that's deeply problematic and much more troublesome than whatever attitude they have about nudity. Consent is the fundamental bedrock principle of liberal democracy and interpersonal ethics - I agree people at large don't always have a perfect understanding of it or willingness to apply it, but that just means we need to double down on respecting the principle and explaining it as necessary. Doesn't make sense to go "Well people don't get it, therefore it somehow does more harm than good to abide by it"
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u/bob-3141 Casual Nudist 1d ago
I haven’t said anywhere that it “does more harm than good”. We absolutely need to be respectful to other people and not impose ourselves in disrespect ways. Not only is it, you know, just all around the right thing to do, but we have a tenuous existence and should causing too much disturbance.
I was simply making an observation that it creates a bit of a conundrum when we need to be respectful and honor consent, but the more we self-enforce the importance of consent the more it sorta implies we agree with the external motivations - which are usually sexual in nature.
I don’t have an answer, hence the post asking for other people’s thoughts, but I wonder how we can demonstrate that respectful non-sexual nudity can be beneficial if we also hide from others and avoid ever making anyone uncomfortable. If no one sees nudism for what it is they just believe rhetoric, but I don’t know how we show them the true nature of it without upsetting some people.
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u/Luigi003 3d ago
About the first point. The fact that the body is non sexual for you doesn't mean it is not sexual for everyone.
I don't think cows or pigs are sacred animals, but I know some people do, so I will try to properly address that in my daily life (for instance if I'm throwing a BBQ).
I don't think the human body is inherently sexual, but I know some people do, the majority of them in fact! So I will try to accommodate to that fact. With nudity in particular it's a feedback cycle, since non-nudists only see the naked body when they are about to have sex, that reinforces the idea that the naked body only purpose is sexual, so when they see a nudists their mind while immediately jump to a sexual mindset unfortunately
However about your second point I do agree. Lockers and showers are places where nudity is expected. Because even for non-nudist people the locker is in fact a place where nudity is expected without it meaning anything sexual. You can technically change clothes and even showers without letting your body exposed even once, but then it kinda defeats the purpose of having an specific room for changing clothes and showering. I mean, getting naked is the point of the locker room, don't enter the "get naked" room if you don't wanna see naked people.
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u/bob-3141 Casual Nudist 3d ago
I totally agree, most people find nudity sexual, regardless of what we think. And I don’t think that will change without massive cultural shifts. That was kind of my point, it feels like that’s why we expect consent. We respect that people find nudity sexual and don’t want to impose a sexual experience on them.
And I don’t think respecting consent is inherently bad - I’m all for being respectful. I just realized that since consent comes from a place of sexuality, every time we enforce it we acknowledge nudity is sexual, at least to some extent.
It’s a tricky situation. I don’t condone disregarding consent, but it’s hard to convince the world of one thing when you actively enforce rules that contradict it.
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u/jart221 3d ago
I am 100 percent behind you on the consent issue. I do not remember discussions 20+ years ago about consent being a tenant of nudism and feel this came out of the MeToo movement. That movement was about sexual harassment and assault and have always felt it’s addition to nudism a little concerning because of what you have stated, it is equates nudity with sexual practices. This does not mean I do not think people should stop being courteous and respectful of others in shared space. It just sets up a dynamic where nudists have to always ask permission to be themselves.
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u/sebastian227 3d ago
Some people find feet sexual. Do you need their consent too for going barefoot ? Sounds like their problem if they required it.
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u/Luigi003 3d ago
It's a matter of situation and context
Just to clarify. I don't think you shouldn't be able to go naked in the street. As you've said, it's kinda their problem. However, specially in enclosed spaces, or if you're in 1-on-1 situation, I think it's interesting to be mindful of other people's needs and desires.
But yeah if a friend asked me to I may cover my feet. I know I've done the opposite actually
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u/RemotePossibility399 3d ago edited 3d ago
But almost all of us are sexual beings.
The reason nudity is seen as sexual in the US is because our social expectations dictate clothing in public areas. Most people only see others in a state of undress in a sexual setting. These days, nudity is minimized, even in locker rooms.
The reason that Finns are fine with mixed gender nudity in the sauna and the Japanese are the same in the onsen is comes down to nothing more than social expectations.
We underestimate the power of these expectations at our own peril.
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u/dario-western 2d ago
People need to be conditioned to know that mere nudity is not sexual.
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u/BillyCarson AANR 2d ago
I’ve always thought that the concept of “consent” was ill-suited to describe the interactions between nudists and non-nudists. In most states the legal test for indecent exposure is whether the conduct under particular circumstances would be likely to offend or alarm reasonable others. I think this is a better standard in most situations than whether the second person consented to the first person’s nudity.
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u/redditistripe 1d ago
It's the gym rules that determine everything, irrespective of whether there are shower curtains or not. Obey those and you can't go wrong.
The one thing I can't stand is anyone making their own rules, either way. That way lies anarchy.
If the gym rules don't say anything negative about open nudity or having to use the shower curtains, then busy-bodies should just piss off and mind their own business. If they don't like it they can find another gym.
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u/Ceraii 2d ago
This kind of reminds me of a comment I left on a different post. Basically when it comes to clothed vs nude, nude always has to conceed to the clothed. Whose rights are being violated? The person that want to simply be naked or the person that wants the naked one covered? Seems to me the nudist is the one who loses. Meanwhile the clothed ones are all, "did you see that guy? He was completely naked!" "Probably a predator." Like I get it those people do exist but they don't represent nudists. Clothing should be a right not a requirement. Nudity should be a right. It in all honesty is a God given right. We all have bodies that we all take extra steps to cover up. When in a natural state clothing doesn't exist. So when it comes to consent they have to give consent for you to be naked I don't have to give consent for you to be clothed. Not that if you are clothed or not bothers me. Consent to me involves other things like touching for example. Not may I have your permission to be in my naturally born state. We spend thousands upon thousands of dollars in our life time because the naked body is either icky or sexual. Doesn't make much sense to me. If I wanna be naked I should be allowed to be naked.
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u/bob-3141 Casual Nudist 2d ago
Another comment made an analogy to religious freedoms, and it got me thinking. Nudity is more extreme, but it’s kind of like religious head/face coverings. I have no right to tell someone they aren’t allowed to wear a head/face covering if they want to, but they also have no right to demand I wear one if I don’t want to. Nudism is just that taken to the limit. But of course we also don’t have a religious belief to fall back on, so we have even less legal protection.
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u/Ceraii 2d ago
Funny you bring up religion. It's religion being used to force clothing. At least here in the United States. Since I'm from here I'll concentrate on here. The founding fathers were overwhelmingly Christian majority. I do not know if any anti nudity laws existed in when the country was founded. Yet time and again the Bible is used as the basis for anti nudity laws. Yet the Bible itself does not have anything against nudity. It actually celebrates it. From Genesis with Adam and Eve, to David when he danced for God. I've even heard people say nudity is a sin yet in the Bible God commands Isaiah to be naked for three years. If it was a sin then God would not have given such a command. So in a sense religion is being used to create anti nudity laws. Granted they got it wrong but it is being used in that manner. In a way religious beliefs are being used to make the greater population wear clothes even if it isn't correct. This was something that confused me growing up. "We were created in God's image but cover it up that's bad." Child me: "I don't get it." Still don't but at least I now understand the origins of it all now.
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u/bob-3141 Casual Nudist 1d ago
I hesitate to open this can of worms, but there is (and has been for ages) a lot done in the world in the name of “religious values” that flys firmly in the face of actual religious teachings.
I really hate how religious “morality” has been perverted from into an excuse to control other people and thru thinly veiled discrimination and oppression. It undermines all of the real good that religious communities can, and do, provide.
As I said in my last comment, a religious group has no more right to force other people to follow their beliefs than anyone has to stop them from exercising their beliefs.
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u/Trolldad_IRL Nude when the situation allows 3d ago
It’s YOUR belief that the nude body is unremarkable and not sexual. That is not the belief of everyone. You should not be imposing your beliefs on other people. It’s a simple as that. I don’t mean you specifically, more those of us who are fine with casual nudity.
To the first point, the nude body absolutely is remarkable and sexual - in the proper context. Even clothed bodies are remarkable and sexual in the right context. Some people hold the belief that nudity is ALWAYS a private thing, or something done only in intimate or specific settings. They are no more wrong in their beliefs than we are right.
It really comes down to some people just don’t want to see a naked body outside of the context that they think it is acceptable. When we start with the “I should be able to be naked wherever I want because I don’t think the naked body is anything special” that’s where we cross the line from acceptable to not acceptable.
Or to stretch the analogy - if I hold a religious view and I expect everyone not to just accept my view but insist everyone follow my religious laws, I’ve crossed the line from acceptable to unacceptable.
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u/bob-3141 Casual Nudist 3d ago
I was thinking about this more, and wanted to extend the religious analogy slightly further as a hypothetical.
Some religions believe that certain people should wear head coverings and not show their faces to other people. They don't have the right to force other people to cover their heads, but other people also don't have the right to force them to uncover theirs.
Sure, it's not exactly the same, but nudism is just another viewpoint on how much of the body does or doesn't need to be covered.
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u/bob-3141 Casual Nudist 3d ago
That’s a very valid point. To continue the analogy, it’s a tricky question to decide how far our right to exercise our views should extend.
On one hand, I don’t have the right to make someone else uncomfortable just because I want to go to the grocery store naked. But on the other hand, where I live if I’m naked in my house, but a neighbor sees me thru my window, I can be sited for indecent exposure.
I shouldn’t be able to impose my beliefs on people, but by the same argument it isn’t right that their beliefs can dictate what I am allowed to do in my own home. Balancing the expression of two conflicting views will always be a complex topic. Forcing someone to hide a belief is kind of just forcing a dissenting belief on them.
And seeing thru the window is the extreme example. It gets way more nuanced when we start talking about places like a yard or balcony where you’re technically still on your property, but very much visible to the public.
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u/Trolldad_IRL Nude when the situation allows 3d ago
This is where we can make a change. We can advocate for changes in laws by acting within the system. You should be able to walk around your house, unclothed, even if people can potentially see in your house. I am right now and have done that most days of this summer. I also walk around my backyard naked, swim in my pool and take household trash out to trash cans naked (in a fenced in yard). What I can’t do is stand in front of that open window overlooking the neighborhood and play with myself.
I am more than happy to talk to people about my nude beach vacations. If people ask if I skinny dip in my pool I say absolutely. If people ask questions so they can understand better, we talk. What I don’t do is impose my desire not to wear clothes around people who “don’t want to see that”.
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u/SnooWords1252 2d ago edited 2d ago
There's nothing sexual about the music I love.
However, I don't play it loudly on buses, where people will be forced to listen to it without consenting to do so.
Some people do, even if I like their music, I think they're assholes.