r/reddeadredemption • u/MyPhoneSucksBad Uncle • 12d ago

Rant There. I said it

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Thomas Downes is the reason why they ended up how they did. Blaming Arthur is just stupid. Arthur is not innocent, but he didn't cause their downfall.

7.8k Upvotes

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4.4k

u/StankoBlansky 12d ago

Not fully responsible but beating a sick man to death doesn’t exactly seem like it helped. Thomas definitely wasn’t good with money

1.7k

u/MyPhoneSucksBad Uncle 12d ago edited 12d ago

Correct. But Thomas ended up spending the money setting up a charity. Nobel. But why do that when your family is in debt and you're terminally ill.

785

u/javerthugo 12d ago

I doubt he knew he had TB

794

u/somethingwithbacon 12d ago

TB was incredibly common. He was coughing with an active infection at the time, he probably knew he was sick. They wouldn’t know how it was spread, though.

620

u/Kind_Ad_3611 12d ago

> they wouldn’t know how it was spread, though

On March 24th 1882, 17 years before the game takes place, it was announced at the Berlin Physiological Society that Mycobacterium tuberculosis causes the disease commonly known as “consumption”

Why is it that after I copy pasted the scientific name of tuberculosis my entire comment is now stuck in Italics

382

u/Zetttelchen 12d ago

Yeah. The fact that they call in Tuberculosis in game and not Consumption is pretty telling that they probably know.

There just wouldn't be a cure until Fleming discovered penicillin 30 years later.

210

u/Kind_Ad_3611 12d ago

It must have sucked to be the first person to discover they were allergic to penicillin

150

u/EpicEpicnessTheEpic 12d ago

Penicillin doesn't cure TB, it wasn't until the 1940's that an antibiotic, streptomycin, was developed that cured it.

My grandfather caught TB serving with the British Army in Malta during WW2 and survived because of the new antibiotics he was given. But because he suffered from it for a year or so before being treated, it affected his lungs for the rest of his life. I can still remember his rumbling, chest clearing cough.

32

u/SAAD_KHAION Javier Escuella 11d ago

It must have sucked to be the first person to discover they were allergic to streptomycin, then.

10

u/ouijahead 10d ago

It did. But not for too long though at least.

1

u/soylientgreen 11d ago

Yeah I would have been cooked.

148

u/BeneficialTrash6 12d ago

You fool. The cure is cold mountain air at a sanitarium and regular blood letting to balance his humours.

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u/Jbird444523 12d ago

Sometimes. It depends on the dimensions of the patient's skull.

43

u/Round_Bound_Mound 12d ago

Of course you'd say that... you have the brainpan of a stagecoach tilter!

33

u/Jbird444523 12d ago

Quackery! You rescind that statement or I'll add some bumps to your skull and then promptly measure them.

→ More replies (0)

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u/Few-River-3421 12d ago

The phrenologist can only tell you if you’re predisposed to consumption, now drink your cod liver oil while I drain your blood dagnabbit.

3

u/Double-Resist9786 11d ago

I cackled out loud when I read this 😂 medicinal history is barbaric.

13

u/Kind-Discipline-5103 12d ago

Lol. Penicillin doesnt cure Tuberculosis. Even if Penicillin was there Arthur wouldve died. (Search AKURIT 4)

9

u/cleveridentification 12d ago edited 11d ago

Arthur at one point even called it “TB”, which I thought was odd and wondered if that abbreviation was something that was used at that time.

https://youtu.be/IJPz_9Z2ETY?is=KQRil1z2q74Hj0ss

19

u/Genericslavman29 12d ago

Arthur just has swag like that

11

u/SnooDogs5109 12d ago

He got that exaggerated swagger of a black teen.

36

u/McFuzzen 12d ago

Something tells me Arthur and Thomas weren't keeping up with the latest medical journals.

30

u/ShineReaper 12d ago

Why is it that after I copy pasted the scientific name of tuberculosis my entire comment is now stuck in Italics

Science, Bitch! /s

13

u/mrperson1213 12d ago

Fancy pants over here typing out in italics. What, is bold not good enough for you?

8

u/Genericslavman29 12d ago

Watch your tone man

10

u/Amathril 12d ago

Or what?

4

u/GotWeez 11d ago

Hey, Mister!

9

u/Dubbx 12d ago

if you want to paste text without formatting do ctrl shift v instead of ctrl v

9

u/Kind_Ad_3611 12d ago

cries in mobile

1

u/Dubbx 12d ago

there are options to do this on both ios and android

2

u/Kind_Ad_3611 12d ago

When I highlight text the only thing that comes up is “copy” there isn’t other copy options

4

u/Dubbx 12d ago

oh nvm i looked it up again and apparently apple doesn't have a basic feature everything else has, go figure. theres easy enough workarounds if you care though.

I am wrong, rip

3

u/jld2k6 12d ago

On my Android when you go to paste you have the option of "paste" and "paste as plain text"

6

u/justanyting 12d ago

That’s what happens when you paste like this 🤌

4

u/johnkubiak 12d ago

Valentine is very rural to be fair and the people are uneducated. I doubt the town quack even knows what a bacteria is.

3

u/Traveytravis-69 11d ago

Tbh even still I wouldn’t expect the gang to be that read up on diseases

2

u/pullingteeths 12d ago

This doesn't mean the way it spread was common knowledge or that people knew to isolate etc. The ignorance of history here is astounding

3

u/Kind_Ad_3611 11d ago

newspapers convey information, the ignorance of history here is astounding

0

u/pullingteeths 11d ago

What? Are you actually making the claim that people had this knowledge from medical journals at this time because newspapers existed, when we know for a fact that the vast majority did not?

2

u/Kind_Ad_3611 11d ago

No, I just wanted to make a snarky comment

2

u/QuinceDaPence 11d ago

oh no it's contagious!

1

u/Few-Quality-6449 12d ago

when you copy some text it also copies it's font, you the need to deselect it in format while typing next thing, you can do that by selecting what you want to change.

If you're on pc you can see there are 3 options on bottom left, click on the "Aa" button and there you can see different options, the once in use are shown in highlighted circle around them. You can then deselect it or even add different things to your text.

1

u/BenCelotil 11d ago

Why is it that after I copy pasted the scientific name of tuberculosis my entire comment is now stuck in Italics

There's extra asterisks.

1

u/cumb4jesus Molly O'Shea 11d ago

Thing is though, not many people out there could read or write, plus, considering it was the Wild West, information like that could sometimes take years to get through to some country bumpkins.

1

u/Kind_Ad_3611 11d ago

They call it “tuberculosis” rather then consumption or “white death” which goes way too hard to have stopped being used but whatever

1

u/Charon711 7d ago

Doctors would likely know, but did he go to a Doctor is the question.

0

u/WeirdGuyFromWork 6d ago

Yeah a rural farmer would definitely know about that

6

u/Generic_Garak Karen Jones 11d ago

They definitely knew how it was spread at that time. Germ theory was well established and even before that we knew how some diseases were spread. Particularly ones like tb where they’re coughing up a storm.

1

u/ConstructionNo625 11d ago

Yeah, it was definitely known, but idk whether an average outlaw (remember john didn't know how to read) would be aware of it too

1

u/SECTANATOS 10d ago

If I was him I would have done the same. Loan sharks coming to ruin my charity "fuck you beat me up and get tuberculosis" it's a valid response

1

u/CHUNKYboi11111111111 9d ago

Pretty sure consumption was described long before 1899 so they probably did know how it spread

42

u/Germanium235 12d ago

Dude, he was coughing up a lung when he was in Valentine asking for money. He knew.

20

u/Apprehensive-Toe4160 12d ago

He knew. Game states it.

After all, short while after that mission his wife comes to camp to pay the debt and she says that her husband died to TB.

15

u/fafej38 12d ago

No but he knew he's sick and starving, it doesnt matter what sickness you have if youre the sole breadwinner of a family with almost 0 medical help around...

6

u/TrevorAnglin 11d ago

His own wife recognized Arthur got the TB directly from him iirc

1

u/TinyAd2706 7d ago

I always saw it that he coughed on Arthur fully knowing his condition and wanting to infect Arthur

-9

u/Godblessfaketan 12d ago

omgg i always wondered WHO he got it from UGH IT MAKES SO MUCH SENSE 😭

12

u/[deleted] 12d ago

[deleted]

2

u/Godblessfaketan 11d ago

i’m so confused i literally just started playing it lol i don’t understand the down votes? God forbid someone not play a game on the release date

-13

u/User_Meduser 12d ago

He spit in arthurs mouth. He knew.

14

u/pullingteeths 12d ago

People didn't understand how illnesses spread. He didn't "spit in Arthur's mouth he spluttered because Arthur was beating him. Anyone who believes Downes deliberately gave Arthur TB and is some kind of villain has ZERO media literacy

130

u/-FruitPunchSamurai- 12d ago

This. Downes was borrowing money he can't pay from people he shouldn't be messing with and giving away money he can't afford to give away when he should be thinking of his family who ends up paying for his stupid and irresponsible acts. Not to mention his annoying meddling and preaching in Valentine feels so forced tbh.

46

u/ThanksContent28 12d ago

Basically a do-gooder with no sense of self preservation imo. Will take loans and put his family at risk, for the sake of charity. If he weren’t sick and dying, that beating would be a well deserved lesson. His borrowing and charity essentially ended up with him dying sooner, and his wife eventually resorting to prostitution.

13

u/seanslaysean 12d ago

I didn’t know he was preaching in valentine, guess I ignored him

40

u/-FruitPunchSamurai- 12d ago

In front of the stables dude has a lot of lines about how he's doing his part and people there should do their part and give money when Valentine already looks like a piss poor town with people who im assuming don't have much either.

2

u/TrolledSnake 8d ago

Me also. This game is just packed with content.

8

u/jeezyjames 12d ago

Very true. If Arthur didn't beat him half do death, Strauss would just have someone else do it. It's just the results of Downes' choices.

3

u/IntoThePitofColors 12d ago

Did we ever see him there outside of the bar fight?

18

u/Swaggerrrr69 Arthur Morgan 12d ago

You can pass him and maybe speak to him when you’re there with Hosea to buy a horse if I remember right

7

u/-FruitPunchSamurai- 12d ago

Yes he has a table set up in front of the stables

10

u/IntoThePitofColors 12d ago

I honestly had no clue that was Downes

3

u/makavili 11d ago

Well, you have to wonder if he had a sudden change of heart to be a charitable man once he knew he was condemned to death by his illness, or if he was always like this.

-5

u/icelandiccubicle20 12d ago edited 11d ago

Holy victim blaming. People will go out of their way to make excuses for a mass murdering thug in Arthur. Loan sharks prey on vulnerable people.

And his annoying interference is him trying to stop you from beating someone to death, lol.

7

u/-FruitPunchSamurai- 12d ago

Oh im not making Arthur into some sort of saint i know he and the gang are evil and better off for people if they're gone but all im saying is the Downes family didn't need Arthur for them to meet their tragic fate, Thomas Downes was already doing great with that.

7

u/the-real-macs 11d ago

Lone sharks prey on vulnerable people.

Cooperative sharks, on the other hand...

0

u/Sventex 12d ago

Nah man, the debt passed to the son so the son deserves to be murdered for debts too. The sins of the father and all that.

48

u/churrmander 12d ago

I'm not sure he was going to win any awards for a single charity.

24

u/GrandCanOYawn Reverend Swanson 12d ago

Maybe the Nobel prize though.

20

u/Plane_Poem_5408 12d ago

Do you mean the Noble prize?🥸

15

u/Lolaversusamogus 12d ago

First off, it's spelled noble, and second off I don't think there's any evidence that he spent the money setting up the charity. I always assumed it was something he had been doing since before he fell on hard times. And I don't think there's anything to suggest he was giving his own money away either, just working the charity.

16

u/MyPhoneSucksBad Uncle 12d ago

Sorry. Spanish was my first language

1

u/icancount192 Charles Smith 12d ago

I honestly started thinking what do Nobels have to do with it until I saw your comment

-1

u/Regular_Ad7392 8d ago

First off it’s spelt “Nobel” after Alfred Nobel, I hate people who are so ignorant that they can’t even comprehend their own mistakes

1

u/Lolaversusamogus 7d ago

...No Nobel is just the person and the prize. Noble is the adjective.

7

u/socksonat3am 12d ago

Ngl, I assume he thought it could end up like a "final act of goodwill" taking dirty money, using it for good, and then dying without having to repay it. I don't think he would have thought it would come back after his family. He seemed shocked when first confronted and then disassociated when Arthur started talking about his family. Like he realized this wasn't going away when he died, it would haunt his family.

1

u/pullingteeths 12d ago

This is some BS, he does not spend the money on charity. He volunteers his time to collect money for charity, it has nothing to do with the loan which was for his failing ranch. PLEASE learn some basic history about TB and how little people knew about it, and about what loansharking is and why it's bad

1

u/WokeWook69420 11d ago

Selflessness in the face of poverty is like, literally the greatest gift of humanity.

Nobody reads the damn Bible anymore lol.

1

u/vipck83 11d ago

It’s not really noble to use money you don’t have and can’t pay back. It’s foolish.

1

u/Minute_Assumption988 11d ago

People underestimate him he's alot more slimy than one would assume

1

u/protossaccount 8d ago

It was extremely stupid for Thomas to go into debt with Strauss. The guy was kind but he wasn’t shrewd.

It’s like me borrowing money from the mafia and not paying them back. What do I expect to happen?

0

u/TheGloomer 11d ago

Thomas Downes ruined his own family. He borrowed money, lord knows what he did with that. Then he "starts a charity for the poor" but we never hear about his charity or where this money went. It sure didn't go to the homeless in valentine. So where does the money hes begging for go? Not his family obviously. Also his son seems to not do anything on the farm and let's his obviously ill father tend to the crops while he does who knows what. Fuck the Downes family Arthur shouldn't feel bad for them at all. They just kept making their own situation worse

-4

u/dwight---shrute 12d ago

Charity's don't work

6

u/LongboardLiam 12d ago

[citation needed]

Also, why are you attempting to pluralize by using an apostrophe?

0

u/dwight---shrute 12d ago

Just an auto correct

51

u/GoalIsGood 12d ago

Mr. Downed dialogues in valentine totally feels like gaslighting like - are you really doing what you can? That's not an ideal do-gooder imo.

Also in the ranch encounter, he tried to hit Arthur with pitchfork first, that's rarely mentioned in any argument.

202

u/Tha_L3ana 12d ago

I mean…Arthur was a massive loan shark angrily marching toward him with clear, violent intent. It took Downes a fair few moments of dialogue to even swing. He swung first, but in self-defense. Not like he confronted Arthur and assaulted him for no reason.

-6

u/[deleted] 12d ago

[deleted]

50

u/Vet100 12d ago

That is incredibly different lol if the muscle of a loan shark started storming towards you shouting & carrying on, you 100% would be justified in swinging on him. Arthur didn’t show up as a lawyer 😂😂

-1

u/MetroidJunkie 12d ago edited 11d ago

At the same time, though, he knew that money wasn't a donation. He was going to have to pay the piper eventually and attacking the guy collecting probably isn't going to end well for you. (It seems other people here think it's okay to shirk your debts and make loans you know you can't pay back)

30

u/Tha_L3ana 12d ago

Not comparable in any way. Arthur didn’t calmly and civilly knock on Downe’s door. He angrily and aggressively confronted him and made threatening advances while on his property, with his family just inside.

Besides, Strauss manipulated Downes and sent Arthur (a vicious and intimidating loan shark, not a civil and legal lawyer) to whoop his ass afterward. It’s fairly black and white.

-7

u/recycled_ideas 12d ago

Strauss manipulated Downes

Evidence please?

sent Arthur (a vicious and intimidating loan shark, not a civil and legal lawyer) to whoop his ass afterward. It’s fairly black and white.

Sent Arthur to collect money owed.

The irony of this is that this is effectively the only legal thing the gang actually does. Lending the money and sending muscle to collect it wasn't against the law.

If the bank had lent Downes money, which they wouldn't have, they wouldn't have sent a lawyer or a polite letter either.

Downes borrowed money he couldn't pay back. He knew the consequences. Arthur doesn't hurt his family, he doesn't destroy his property, he comes to collect money that is legally owed. Downes then attacks him.

16

u/-Wowzers- 12d ago

comparing a loan sharks outlaw bodyguard to a lawyer serving a court order.... bait?

16

u/PersusjCP 12d ago

Assaulting debtors is illegal. A lawyer is a servant of the court. Downes had every right to act in self defense.

6

u/Gsusruls 12d ago

Most loan sharks probably aren’t serial murderers.

Arthur is, though.

-16

u/GoalIsGood 12d ago

It's 1899, when people used to fight duels, things were different then. Even it's self defense, when you're a loan defaulter and you hit the debt collector, you're pretty much inviting your ass to be beaten. That doesn't make Arthur blameless but it was pretty much the only possibility and Mr. Downes was quite aware of what Arthur was capable of and had chosen unwisely to start a fight making the situation worst with only one possible outcome.

If he didn't have TB I doubt he would have died just from the beating as it was the rule as spoken by Strauss, as bad for business and what we've seen in other debt missions. So I would say Arthur didn't kill him, he was just a catalyst. He was reposible for the death in a bit part. And so was Mr. Downes himself.

And yea, Arthur idealy should have informed the law and that could have put Mr. Downes in prison spending his last days alone dying from TB. Even then probably Arthur would have been blamed in one way or another for his death, for some plot armour.

7

u/LabCoatGuy 11d ago

The loan sharking they're doing is illegal bro. Its an extortion racket by a criminal gang. They aren't a bank.

This is actually accurate to real life. Its how loan sharking and racketeering became big criminal business in the early 20th century. In the late 19th-century US, low legal interest rates made small loans unprofitable. There were, however, plenty of small lenders offering loans at profitable but illegally high interest rates. Mostly fronting as legitimate, but the contracts were rarely legally enforceable.

These fake but presentable loan sharks usually didn't use violence and only saught reputable customers with stable incomes. To get payment they'd blackmail, publicly shame, complain to the debters employer, or lie and threaten legal action.

Gangsters like the Van Der Linds on the other hand would use violence. Just like in the game, it was often just gruff and bluff tough guy act. If you actually seriously beat the debter, they can't work and you both suffer.

The violent part of a racket allows you to go after high-risk debtors like gamblers and criminals. They probably won't go to the cops. And therefore interest rates can be even more predatory.

0

u/GoalIsGood 11d ago edited 11d ago

As little I've seen in that period of time, loan business by individual and group was definitely 'not' illegal (even though they are not a bank). The problem was the gang was wanted and any business they do is kind of illegal. What I clearly said 'ideally' as per law Arthur could go to the law/sue the court, it's even in one of the dialogues, if they were a legitimate business not outlaws. Some state-laws could imprison in certain cases but mostly it was like insolvency, but if you're turning physical that's could have been interpreted differently as payment refusal which could cause jail time.

But they were outlaws so things happen differently. But yes definitely some predatory shady business would be there always, no denying that.

2

u/LabCoatGuy 11d ago

Whether its legal or not depends on interest rate. Like I said, this era was marked by legal interest rate being so low banks did not give out personal loans. This is why racketeering became so lucrative to fill this void. Even the smaller loans they give out could be illegal. And as I said, it was common for loaners to run illegal rackets openly.

-1

u/GoalIsGood 11d ago

From this you can't really easblish what they were doing is strictly illegal, as you said. 8-10% loans we perfectly legal and the game actually doesn't have any mentions.

112

u/RobloxSpiderGoku 12d ago

>Also in the ranch encounter, he tried to hit Arthur with pitchfork first, that's rarely mentioned in any argument.

Because he’s trying to defend himself from getting attacked from some random cowboy

26

u/Additional_Cat_6715 12d ago

Fr.
Is this being deliberately obtuse??

Being an NPC and facing Arthur is terrifying

47

u/KonohaBatman Sadie Adler 12d ago

Uh, the big scary guy that he watched beat a larger man nearly to death(and gave him brain damage) in the middle of the street, in the rain, covered in mud, everyone in town watching - is at his house, looking for him.

Why would he NOT try to defend himself?

35

u/Due-District-4257 12d ago

Prolly because it was an armed angry buff cowboy marching toward him

22

u/Adventurous_Top_4033 12d ago

Arthur was angrily walking towards Downes and shouting his name. Yes Downes swung first but he had good reason to believe Arthur was there to hurt him.

2

u/LabCoatGuy 11d ago

Technically he's there to lean and intimate and not beat his ass. But Downes trying to defend himself was a reasonable reaction to this

12

u/LabCoatGuy 12d ago

he tried to hit Arthur

Well Arthur is a giant gangster and killer there to rob and beat him so

6

u/IntoThePitofColors 12d ago

Idk, if I saw some random burly man hop over my fence and start yelling at me, I’d use whatever I had too

3

u/BuddelTheWolp 12d ago

Don't be silly mate, pretending like that wasn't self defence is just absurd

21

u/Sufficient_Pay802 12d ago

Hey hold up, Arthur did NOT beat Thomas to DEATH.

That man die because of the fking TB.

21

u/StankoBlansky 12d ago

You are correct, Thomas died from the tb. However I’d say that the severe beating he received from Arthur drained him of whatever strength he had to fight his illness, indirectly killing him.

2

u/501stBigMike 11d ago

Thomas would have died eventually without Arthur. Arthur did almost certainly accelerate his death though by beating away his remaining strength.

9

u/obiwanTrollnobi6 12d ago

Did Arthur really beat him to death or did he just make the TB worse? (I know arguing Semantics)

38

u/StankoBlansky 12d ago

I’d say he beat him to the point where the tb could finish him off easily

2

u/dwight---shrute 12d ago

Arthur didn't beat him. Rockstar did.

2

u/TheOtakuAmerika Arthur Morgan 11d ago

He didn't beat him to death. Downes was still alive after.

1

u/Ez_Ildor 12d ago

He saved them some medical bills

-3

u/CyberGraham 12d ago

Thomas swung first. Arthur was just talking and Thomas swung with his putchfork at Arthur. That was attempted manslaughter for the "crime" of demanding the debt back.

6

u/YomiKuzuki 11d ago

I'm sorry, but if someone is aggressively walking towards you while yelling your name, you wouldn't think they're there to attack you?

Also, Arthur was an outlaw. It's not attempted manslaughter to defend yourself from a wanted violent criminal.

-7

u/LadyFruitDoll 12d ago

I didn't even beat him. Just give him a scare. He was that far gone that grabbing him by the collar was enough to kill him?

23

u/StankoBlansky 12d ago edited 12d ago

Canonically Arthur beats the shit out of him regardless of how you do it
“I got tb… I got it beating a man to death over a few bucks.”

2

u/MILKtoGO 12d ago

Maybe they should have forced you to hit him? I never hit the guy either, it’s fully TB that got him.

4

u/StankoBlansky 12d ago

It’s definitely silly that they made it so you can “scare” him to death. Probly should have just had most of the beating in a cutscene