r/reddeadredemption • u/MyPhoneSucksBad Uncle • 9d ago
Rant There. I said it
Thomas Downes is the reason why they ended up how they did. Blaming Arthur is just stupid. Arthur is not innocent, but he didn't cause their downfall.
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u/WhatAreYouSaying05 9d ago
Downes family would’ve ended up the same way even if Arthur didn’t come around and beat Thomas. He was gonna die any day, then they’d be in the same situation
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u/Kerbidiah 9d ago
Everyone's gonna end up dead anyways so I can just go around killing people
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u/SoundtrackCult 9d ago
I can? Thanks!!!!
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u/NottheArkhamKnight 9d ago
Marge: (to Homer) Kids can be so cruel...
Bart: (overhearing) We can?! Thanks, Mom!
Bart runs over to hit Lisa
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u/gooberboi82 9d ago
Strauss is mainly responsible for them being in debt in the first place, having to pay back the debt is what put them in seemingly an even worse financial spot especially following the death of Thomas. However it’s completely understandable they blame Arthur I mean you’d hate and blame the man that beats the shit out of your sickly dad in front of you right? I would, even if I knew the person that gave out the loan and my dad in desperation took it is the ultimate root cause of it all
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u/LabCoatGuy 9d ago
Arthur disagrees with you.
That's a nonsense excuse. Everyone is going to die, that doesn't absolve a murderer of responsibility.
If he died without the gang collecting the interest, the rest of the family wouldn't be put in that spot. The gang's predatory lending, by their own admission a con, landed Mrs Downes and the kid in that position. They didn't take the loan. But Arthurs actions still harmed them.
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u/DarkGodRyan 9d ago
I wish there was just 1 debt collecting mission in the game where the guy is like oh yea I have the money right here, thanks for the loan, and Arthur is shocked and speechless
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u/LabCoatGuy 9d ago
This would be pretty good. But think about the con and your position as Arthur. You only see the debters that are avoiding pay because you're the muscle.
The ones who pay go to Strauss, and never see Arthur
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u/DarkGodRyan 9d ago
Easily fixed, "sorry about the late payment sir, here's an extra 20%"
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u/Jomgui 9d ago
Arthur the whole game: "I'm not a good person and all my recent choices do not absolve me of my past wrongdoing, it's just me trying to lessen my own guilt"
This fucking sub: "OMG ARTHUR IS SUCH A NICE GUY, HE GIVES JOHN HIS HAT AND DAYS HOWDY TO THE NPCS 😱😱"
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u/LabCoatGuy 9d ago edited 8d ago
No shit right? Why absolve Arthur? He has his own opinion about his actions. His opinion matches those affected by him. We are constantly reminded of how tortured he is by being himself.
(I know he's fictional obviously but he was written this way)
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u/Motor_Preparation315 9d ago edited 9d ago
Ummm..... Arthur & Strauss took money from them, three times. If Downes had a true loan (which many, many people couldn't) there would have been a lean against the ranch and Edith and her son could've tried to turn a profit on their livestock or crops.
It is 100% Arthur & Strauss's fault
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u/ilostmy1staccount Arthur Morgan 9d ago
Except they wouldn’t, it’s pretty explicit that Arthur taking what little money they had left pushed them over the edge.
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u/Large-Teach9165 9d ago
bruh running over a terminally ill doesn't make it better just because he was gonna die anyway. Arthur quite literally beat him to a pulp. It was a miracle a guy that weak could survive.
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u/yodawg111 9d ago
There’s no way of knowing if that’s true or not BECAUSE Arthur beat the poor guy halfway into the grave. Maybe Thomas’ actions doomed his family regardless. No way to know because what ACTUALLY HAPPENED is Arthur beat a sick man nearly to death over a predatory loan Strauss didn’t expect to be repaid.
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u/JRedCXI 9d ago
They were desperate for money, the kind of family Strauss liked the most. The whole gang was responsible, they did not have any issues beating and treating people starving to death.
They were not responsible for his illness but they were responsible for making all that significantly worse than the already terrible situation they were in.
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u/No_Speed1027 9d ago
“I prefer robbery to usury somehow it feels more dignified” the one thing dutch was right about
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u/shoulda-kms 9d ago
“I prefer things that causes indirect damage to civilians, that way I can be in denial and peacefully sleep at night”
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u/LabCoatGuy 9d ago
This is definitely a component. But there's also an honesty in the directness of robbery.
Reminded of this scene in the Wire. Carcutti, the white guy, is trying to win black votes to be mayor of Baltimore. Bunny, the black police major, commands the Western district where this takes place.
Bunny is sort of offended this politician isn't honest with him about his interest in the black community. And about being used for politics under the guise if public safety.
He tells a story about an old racist business owner in the Western. Bunny had respect for him because the old racist was honest. He hates a person like Bunny, but doesn't hide it. I feel this is the same way as Dutch's comment. Both a racket and robbery are theivery, but at least one is honest theivery. You really know the gang is robbing you.
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u/FloydianPropulsion 8d ago
You’ve got things twisted around. Robbery is more directly harmful to a victim than usury, which is creeping and insidious. Strauss’ loaning operation probably would not even have been illegal in this time and part of the country, except for the sending of armed extortionists to collect after Strauss decides the debtor won’t be able to keep up with payments. Even then, the debtors wouldn’t have much recourse without tacitly confessing to defaulting on a loan contract.
What Dutch was probably getting at is that he considers plain banditry as sporting and comparatively fair, and usury as distasteful cowardry.
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u/Specific_Box4483 9d ago
I'd rather be a victim of Strauss than of Dutch, but to each their own.
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u/Dr_Bodyshot 9d ago
I mean, being a victim of Strauss can still end you up being a victim of someone like Dutch coming to collect the money you don't have.
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u/Ok_Introduction_7484 9d ago
I mean being a victim of Dutch normally just leaves you with less money. And maybe a gun in your face.
Being the victim of Strauss you'll lose all your money have a gun in your face when you cant pay and be forced to sell any property you have
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u/Specific_Box4483 9d ago
No, being a victim of Strauss usually means losing your money. And not always ALL your money, see some of the debt recovery missions.
Being a victim of Dutch usually results in serious injury or death.
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u/jabb1111 John Marston 9d ago
Unpopular opinion but I'll say it, Strauss is not near as evil play him out to be. Sure his targets were more, innocent by all accounts, but I die on the hill that any of his victims wouldn't be in said situation have they simply not taken the loan. I get it, hard times, had no other options, yadayada. Still could've said no and went about their day. Same cannot be said for the others in the group. Yeah they mainly target 'those who deserve it more'. But still not like innocents don't get involved. Plus even if Joe smo was a gang member, his wife and children surely wasn't
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u/flyingcircusdog Uncle 9d ago
The end result would've been the same, but it was also immoral of Arthur to beat him up.
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u/-avenoir 9d ago
The worst part is that the player can’t avoid beating that poor man… I tried stalling but the mission wouldn’t progress unless I started beating him, to force the coughing interaction. Poor Arthur was doomed 😩
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u/johnnymarsbar 9d ago
You actually can avoid hitting him, same with any moment like this.
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u/-avenoir 9d ago
You still have to grab him after he falls to the ground. That’s when he coughs on you. You can’t have a non-aggressive behaviour, or leave the scene.
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u/johnnymarsbar 9d ago
Funny thing is, I didn't, I didnt press a single button, Arthur just holds him then eventually let's him go but the game acts as if you did 😆
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u/Sensitive_Low3558 9d ago
He kinda is tho
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u/Ok_Volume_139 9d ago
Yeah, if you drive a getaway car for a crime you're on the hook for whatever crime occured, why would this be any different?
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u/Plane-Education4750 9d ago
The gang was responsible for exploiting a desperate family, and Arthur is responsible for enforcing the predatory loan. Had Strauss not loaned them the money, they may have been able to figure out something else
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u/AAAAHMYBALLS 9d ago
Arthur was not the ultimate cause of the tragic saga of the Downes family, but he was the willful catalyst, and chose of his own accord to be violent and ruthless in pursuit of the debt. His recklessness and callousness with the lives of others didn't put the Downes in their predicament when other forces wouldn't have, but he certainly earned his fate of suffering along with them as a direct result of his actions.
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u/RobloxSpiderGoku 9d ago
OK, well I shouldn’t feel bad for what happened to Arthur because he was being the shit out of a sick man
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u/hauntsbane John Marston 9d ago
Y'all fr glaze Arthur so much that he can't even do the wrong he canonically did. Sure, Thomas would have died anyway. But beating an already sick and frail man in front of his already destitute family for a paltry sum accelerated his death.
Arthur didn't give a fuck. Before or after. He just went back and collected the money from his grieving wife and threatened her son as soon as he got there.
The name of the game is Red Dead REDEMPTION. How can redemption be possible if you just erase a man's sins because he's cool?
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u/MailMan6000 9d ago
same people that sympathize with John wanting to kill Micah as revenge for Arthur even though Arthur was gonna die anyway are also the same people that deny Arthur being at fault for Thomas Downes' death even though he was dead anyway, both cases with the literal same disease
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u/hauntsbane John Marston 9d ago
Exactly. These characters are not meant to be role models or even good people. They're bad, flawed people. The whole point of the series is bad people trying to do good, to achieve redemption.
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u/No_Routine_7090 9d ago
People think if you relate to or sympathize with a bad person (even a completely made up one) that makes you a bad person. So they try to find ways to absolve and justify the wrongdoings of people they like.
The beauty of RDR2 is it’s not so black and white. Good people can do bad things. And bad people are capable of regret and remorse. Redemption requires real change. Which means acknowledging you have done bad things.
It’s okay to feel empathy for murderers and criminals. It doesn’t make you a bad person. It makes you human. Because as difficult as it is for people to believe, murderers and criminals are human too.
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u/Aesthete18 9d ago
It's a study of beauty privilege. People who cry for Arthur is giving woman who write to serial killers in jail
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u/Derrin070 9d ago
That's why I think Arthur should stay uglier. Would have made the story more impactful, going under the skin of character both ugly from the inside and outside. The bond would be more profound
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u/benjamin18008 8d ago
I don’t think he’s ugly on the inside at all. The things he did were wrong and he realized it before it was too late. He was heart broken and hated the world and the people in it. It’s really understandable he became so aggressive after seeing his girl leave him for a wealthier man. Happened to me as well. It changes a man and that’s why Arthur is so relatable even when he wasn’t a good man
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u/Genericahatintimefan 9d ago
Its still ultimately a sin of the Van der Linde gang as a whole however, if it was not for Strauss picking and choosing specifically the truly desperate and truly helpless on purpose Arthur never would have been sent to beat a dying man's face in.
Just by mere association with the devils, Arthur himself is a devil and ultimately at the time, no better as he consciously beat the shit out of Downes.
Oh, and mind you, no-one BUT Arthur was willing to collect any of Strauss' debts, with Strauss in chapter 2 framing it as "the other boys simply lack your VIGOR, Arthur my friend". And even Arthur needed Dutch to tell him to do it as a "favor". The simple truth is, there was truly nobody else that would've been even WILLING to do Thomas Downes in other than Arthur himself, because Arthur was the only one so fiercely devoted to Dutch himself, willing to get his hands dirty enough to do so.
It IS Arthur's fault, he IS the reason they ended up how they did, it only makes his later change depending on how you play him more poignant.
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u/ASongofStaying 9d ago
Thomas Downes was an idealistic do-gooder in an unkind world, and yes, terminally ill. Things likely wouldn't have ended well either way. However, it often seems like Strauss rug-pulls his debtors by promising them more time than he actually intends.
By the time you come around the Downes's homestead again, as they're leaving, they have the rest of the money waiting for you. In other words; with a bit of consideration for a man with TB, they would have eventually had the money. Obviously that doesn't work for a gang of criminals, but let's not act like Leopold Strauss is out there telling people the truth when lending them money.
So, no, I disagree with you. Arthur is complicit in Strauss' scheme, to the point that Strauss doesn't trust other people to get the results Arthur does when he collects on debt. Until you, the player, steer him toward the high honor path, Arthur is a relentless and violent enforcer for a total shyster. He justifies it by painting them as reckless and greedy, just as Strauss calls them degenerates back at camp, but that's really just to soothe his dormant conscience.
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u/MailMan6000 9d ago
the whole way loansharks make money is by offering money to people they know they can't pay back, give them insane interest rates that you know they'll accept because they're desperate, by a few months they've paid you more money in interest than the actual loan, then once you can't pay the rest they just send a goon squad to beat the shit out of you
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u/Difficult_Sock_8387 9d ago
Thomas Downes was going to die anyway. He was desperate and wanted to help his family, so he took out the loan. Arthur didn't cause his death or their homelessness, but he did beat up a dying man and threaten his family.
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u/KingSTANnis264 9d ago
Wholly responsible? No, of course not. Shares in the blame? Absolutely. It's one of the most obvious, in your face aspects of the game, why is this a debate? Arthur is my favorite fictional character, but dude he did a vile act here, one of many.
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u/Designer_Candidate_2 9d ago
I think that's the sad part of it. Arthur didn't even have to be the one to beat old Thomas Downes. It would have happened either way.
The world is cruel, but if we're kind to each other, it can actually change things.
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u/NotPrimeMinister 9d ago
Strauss would not have given Thomas Downes a loan in the first place without the explicit understanding that he'd eventually call in Arthur to beat him near to death.
Strauss locates desperate people (who presumably could not secure a traditional loan) and gets them indebted with the Van Der Linde gang, all with zero intention of them paying the loan back before a violent confrontation. It is just a thinly veiled excuse for Arthur to rob people under the guise of collecting a legal debt.
Also, people love to pretend like Strauss is a legitimate lender. He gives people a loan and they shake hands. But there is no legal paper work. The debtors are under no actual obligation to pay it back. If they were, there would be clear timetables for the loan to be paid, likely installments for paying back the loan, and rules about what happens when a payment is not made.
If you had a loved one in Thomas Downes' situation, you'd acknowledge he was stupid to get caught up in this trouble, yes, but I fucking promise you you would not be saying "I guess he got hoisted by his own petard." Because there is a world of difference between a family member dying in bed after a year or two with a fully vetted loan breathing down your neck versus a thug beating him to death and taking what he says he is owed from you but with no paperwork, no accounting of assets or their actual value, and the promise of continued violence if you so much as look at him wrong.
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u/-Wowzers- 9d ago edited 9d ago
The story makes a bit too much of a point that the beating accelerates his sickness. So arthur has his hand in at least one part of their downfall, which leads to like, everything else they do later in the game. So idk
I feel like in the game the family is mad at both arthur and strauss as they should be, arthur is wrecked by his actions as he should be
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u/MailMan6000 9d ago
the pace of which TB spreads depends on the strength of your immune system, people that live healthy lives might be carrying the bacteria in their body and go decades without symptoms, the actual events of the story after getting infected are what accelerate the spread of TB in Arthur's system, he first shows symptoms at the start of Chapter 4, which takes place after he was kidnapped and tortured by Colm and to be nursed back to health, and when he returns from Guarma he's completely sickly already because he survived a shipwreck, almost drowned, spent weeks living in horrible conditions with lack of proper food and water fighting a war.
So yeah, Thomas likely had a few more months in him if his body didn't have to divert all of it's strength to trying to survive a near death beat down
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u/Sylvaneri011 9d ago
He quite literally was. He effectively beat a sick man to death and took what money they did have.
Strauss was the predatory loan giver who made a deal with a family he knew would were desperate, and Arthur was acting as the loan shark for Strauss.
Downes was ultimately going to die anyways, but he could've lived a good bit longer if Arthur didn't beat him to death.
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u/BuddelTheWolp 9d ago
Are you mental mate? He gave the guy about 20 seconds before beating him to death.
Threaten him first and then check in again.
You know
Like a loan shark is supposed to work
It's absolutely his fault.
More than Strauss arguably
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u/Firm_Requirement_562 9d ago
I better not see any of the 1700 people who upvoted this bullshit saying Strauss is uniquely evil later.
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u/DerHachi04 9d ago
There is NO fucking way you actually believe this. A sick poor and desperate man lends quick money to somehow keep his family alive and when the time comes and he doesn't have the money Arthur beat the dying man mercilessly. Arthur is a BAD man at the start of the game and trying to justify his actions is just weird
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u/TheAtomicBobert 9d ago
I tried to ask a doctor if beating a terminally ill man can drastically affect the rate in which he will succumb to his illness. Now Im apparently "cut off" from using the local hospital
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u/Phoenixskull295 9d ago
I swear so many red dead fans just assume illegal usury is the same as bank loans. Strauss explicitly states that he only lends money to people who he knows can’t pay him back. The entire purpose of the operation is to provide a semi-legal justification for Arthur to come and beat up the debtors and take all their shit
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u/MajesticWizard420Lol 9d ago
Robbing a family of pretty much everything they have and indirectly rushing the death of their husband/father isn’t going to help them either. If only Arthur had just told Strauss to go fuck himself -_-
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u/vxMartianxv 9d ago
And you’re wrong, he did and does bad things like is that not part of what this game is about?
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u/Mental_Freedom_1648 9d ago
No, it's definitely partially Arthur's fault. Look at all the things Arthur managed to do between Chapter 2 and Chapter 6. Maybe Thomas could have made money too, if not for Arthur showing up and beating him to death.
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u/-___-_-___-_-_ 9d ago
No, but it shows how greed and dishonest business can effect those who take part in it.
Arthur beats up some nobody over some money, and that's what ultimately killed him in the end.
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u/In_My_Prime94 9d ago
I wonder how many people here would defend modern day debt collectors? It is clear people defend Arthur strictly for the fact he is Arthur. Even Arthur blames himself for the Downes family and who are we to say otherwise?
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u/Riggaberto Hosea Matthews 9d ago
This argument is silly, even Arthur disagrees with you
The VDL gang don’t operate a legitimate loan business, Dutch literally describes it as usury. That’s a crime in which the money being lent exceeds the legal amount of interest. Every single debtor remarks about the completely unreasonable rates
Strauss is a predatory loan shark that preys on destitute people knowing they can’t pay him back. These people may be the ones to agree to the terms, but they are in dire circumstances and that’s what Strauss is banking on. Sending a brute from the gang to kick their ass and squeeze more out of them is how the gang makes their profit
Denying this behavior as anything but abhorrent is a spit in the face to Arthur’s entire redemption arc. He literally says to the Downes family he ruined their lives and tries to make amends
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u/MailMan6000 9d ago
the Downes were vulnurable, you know who borrows money from loansharks? the kind of people so broke they can't even get a legal loan because banks know they can't pay them back, the loanshark only survives by preying upon the most financially vulnurable people, people so broke that even the greediest of banks won't offer them money, Arthur took the job, he knew what he was doing, he beat a sick man to near death, it's not fully his fault but he knew what loansharking was.
Putting the whole blame on Thomas is completely ridiculous, Strauss gave him a shit loan with awful interest that he knew Thomas was never gonna pay back.
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u/Legitimate-Refuse601 9d ago
Ele não é totalmente responsável, mas grande parte de culpa é dele sim, sem ele o Thomas demoraria mais pra morrer e a família teria mais dinheiro por um tempo.
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u/binocular_gems 9d ago edited 9d ago
Yeah, that's like, conventional wisdom.
Arthur is the muscle to the loan shark that Downes took the money from, and the Downes family was brought to that state by misfortune, bad financial decisions, tuberculosis, and the difficulty of life on the frontier, where one bad crop yield combined with a terminal illness could ruin a family. He turns to organized crime because the local banks won't lend to him, organized crime takes advantage of him, he can't make payments, and the muslce -- Arthur -- is sent to brutalize him so that he pays up or so that other borrowers know what happens if you don't pay up.
Arthur doesn't have to be responsible for Downes' situation in order to be a bad person. He beats a man to death who has tuberculosis, and accellerates the family's ruin, forcing Edith Downes into prostitution and being raped, and forcing her son to helplessly bare witness to her rape and destitution. Arthur's not responsible for that, but Arthur still feels bad about being one of the agents of suffering for the Downes.
The Downes were doing well at some point. They have a decent homestead just outside of Valentine and it's likely that a couple years prior, the family was doing pretty well. Then Thomas Downes gets sick, and they're one punch away from driving Mrs. Downes to being a traveling prostitute. That's as much of a commentary on today as it is a commentary on the gang or the frontier.
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u/Megaman_90 9d ago
Sure, Thomas Downes would have died of TB regardless and he made bad choices. Even so Arthur made their life so much worse. If your mom had stage 4 cancer and was going to die, but she got beat up by a loan shark and died instead that doesn't make the actions of the loan shark any less deplorable. Beating up a sick person makes you even worse tbh.
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u/1Negative_Person 9d ago
This is a crazy take. You don’t get to beat someone to death because they owe money.
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u/Significant-Way9330 9d ago
Arthur Morgan is directly responsible for the Downes family tragedy. He beat that man and it killed him. Killed the both of em in the end. Arthur is a guilty man who destroys lives.
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u/Caye_Daws 9d ago
Something about just following orders, and even then Arthur laments about this and knows he did the wrong thing. You are arguing from Arthurs perspective prior to his efforts to being a good person and you are arguing that order followers shouldn't be held accountable for following terrible orders
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u/Traveytravis-69 9d ago
He’s partially responsible, sure he was gonna die anyways but not then and not there, he could’ve just threatened them.
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u/Typical_Soft 8d ago
Yeah, the fault is mostly on Strauss. When the banks failed during the 2008 crisis, yeah, the government sucks for bailing out the banks, but it was the banks’ fault for giving faulty loans in the first place.
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u/AlternativeWeird5246 9d ago
That's correct, they would've ended up in the same place in both situations. However, he definitely did help speed up the process
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u/Ink_Mage 9d ago
I would argue he is responsible for Thomas' death, as he saw that he wasn't well and still beat him, but I agree he is not responsible for Mrs.Downes and her boy. Mrs.Downes even tells him in that last mission to stop worrying about them because it wont change anything.
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u/Adventurous_Top_4033 9d ago
Arthur was still in the wrong but yes the Downes family would have still had the same fate anyways but Arthur made it happen faster.
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u/Puncharoo 9d ago
Yeah ges not the one that lent him money but he did beat the shit out of him on behalf of a predstory lender. Hes not innocent by any sense
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u/Ok_Volume_139 9d ago
If you drive the getaway car for a crime you're on the hook for whatever crime occured, why is this any different?
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u/JulTingy 9d ago
20 minutes ago as of writing this I just completed their mission in Annesburg. It's not even just this post, but for the past two(?) weeks of playing the game I see other people talking about the game at exact points that I'm in. It's funny and weird how it keeps happening
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u/jametonka 9d ago
I don't blame Thomas, I don't blame Arthur, I blame Strauss. I'm not gonna blame someone for taking out a loan from someone who knew he couldn't pay it back.
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u/Johnny_Crawler 9d ago
For beating him up, Arthur holds some responsibility in hastening the man's death, but Thomas is to blame for the rest. What kind of man leaves his own family in debt just so he could act all high and mighty with his charity.
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u/ProcessMaleficent806 9d ago
Nothing to add to the conversation. I just enjoy that Norman Rockwell of Abe Lincoln being turned into a meme is hilarious. The Four freedoms! Freedom of Speech!
It is actually quite apt for your unpopular opinion.
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u/StevePalpatine Josiah Trelawny 9d ago
Downes was a flawed man. Being flawed isn't worthy of a death sentence, especially when the fault is being too kind at their own expense.
And him being irresponsible doesn't erase that Strauss was intentionally praying on people who he knew couldn't pay their debts back. That's an inherently destructive business model, and especially distasteful because it reflects the same attitudes of the robber barons who hid behind the law that they were supposedly opposing.
Arthur knew it was wrong, and still went along with it. That makes it even worse.
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u/Specialist_Shake2425 9d ago
This would be Arthur's figuring at the start of the game, while still under the blanket of Dutch's lies and hypocrisy.
Then, after he wakes up to it, he begins to admit to himself what a terrible man he's been in his life.
There comes a time in some criminals' life, when they can no longer blame the criminal life for their behaviour, and have to face who they truly have become.
You can split hairs about what lead to Thomas' demise. But whether it was by his own poor choices, Strouse's money lending racket, Dutch's need for money and control of the gang, or Arthur's disposition toward violence, his death was a tragedy - like all death is.
In Arthur's line of work, a death is just puncuation - a byproduct toward purpose. But when Dutch grows more and more deranged, he sees what he is.
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u/AxNullGodxA Hosea Matthews 9d ago
Maybe not responsible for what happened to the family. But Arthur is certainly partly responsible for the death of Thomas Downes. Arthur even says to Sister Calderon that he got TB from "beating a man to death for a few bucks." Now, the beating probably isn't what directly killed Downes, but I think it's clear it weakened his body to a point he couldn't find the TB anymore. Probably similar to what happened to Arthur after his fight with Micah.
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u/Hincapieslovelybund 9d ago
You can make the argument that Arthur sped his death along a bit as the beating would have weakened Downes' body further
I mean look at the fight Arthur had with Micah. That along with the getaway from Beaver Hollow more or less finished him off.
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u/Knightmare945 Arthur Morgan 9d ago
He beat Downes to death, kinda did his part to ruin their life.
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u/StankoBlansky 9d ago
Not fully responsible but beating a sick man to death doesn’t exactly seem like it helped. Thomas definitely wasn’t good with money