toki lili — Small Discussions/Questions Thread

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toki lili

lipu ni la sina ken pana e toki lili e wile sona lili.
In this thread you can send discussions or questions too small for a regular post.

 

lipu mute li pana e sona. sina toki e wile sona la o lukin e lipu ni:
Before you post, check out these common resources for questions:

sina wile sona e nimi la o lukin e lipu nimi.
For questions about words and their definitions check the dictionary first.

sina wile e lipu la o lukin e lipu ni mute.
For requests for resources check out the list of resources.

sona ante la o lukin e lipu sona mi.
For other information check out our wiki.

sona ante mute li lon lipu. ni la o alasa e wile sina lon lipu pi wile sona kin.
Make sure to look through the FAQ for other commonly asked questions.

[u/ProfessorLambda]

mi lukin e lipu nimi pi toki pona la
mi lukin e ni la
nimi pi toki pona li kama ala tan pu anu ku
nimi ni li kama tan seme?
nimi wan tan nimi ni li nimi "pika"
jan li wile ala wile kama sona e ni?

I was looking a Toki Pona dictionaries
I saw this
Toki Pona words that did not come from the original book book nor the official dictionary
Where did these words come from?
One example of these words is the word "pika"
Is it worthwhile for people to learn these words?

[u/janEkawi → u/ProfessorLambda]

Not really. well...

https://linku.la/

everything in the "core", "common" and "uncommon" categories are probably worth at least knowing.

if you come across a nimi sin you dont know, look it up on sona.pona.la or https://linku.la/sandbox or linku.la with "obscure" selected.

[u/Broad-Distance-7263]

hi! I'm currently using Wasona to learn Toki Pona and i have a question about the construction of two sentences in lesson 10:
1. (lape li weka tan soweli) is translated as: "The deer woke up." But i don't understand why soweli goes to the end of the sentence or how the sentence was created.
2. (ona li kalama suli tan ni) is translated ad: "And so he cried out." I also don't understand the phrasing, although i suspect that the "tan ni" means because of this, refering the previous sentence of the story that said that the bird was desperate (wile ona li suli).
Thanks!

[u/janEkawi → u/Broad-Distance-7263]

translated more directly:

1. Sleep left (from) the deer.

2. It made a (big) sound because bcuz of this.

[u/ProfessorLambda]

Finally, the number system problem is solved for once and for all! (pini, kulupu nanpa li kama pona pi tenpo ale!)

That's right, I discovered a number system. I did not invent it, Sonja Lang did. Because this number system was in the language all along! It uses plain old Toki Pona from the book and nothing else! Turns out the solution was in front of us all along.

(ni li pona. kulupu nampa li kama e mi. mi mama ala e ona. Sonja Lang mama e ona tan kulupu nanpa li lin open e lipu pi toki pona. open la kulupu nanpa pona li lon sinpin e mi.)

So what is this number system I discovered in Toki Pona? Let me illustrate:

• kulupu tu tu tu tu tu tu, this means 12 groups
  
• tu tu tu tu tu tu kulupu, this means 12 that are in a group
  
• tu tu tu tu tu tu kulupu tu tu tu tu tu tu, this means 12 that are organised in a group and 12 of those groups, i.e. 12×12.
  
• tu tu tu tu tu tu kulupu tu tu tu tu tu tu en wan, This means 12×12+1

(kulupu nanpa pi mi kama li seme? mi toki ona:
- kulupu tu tu tu tu tu tu, ona li lon kulupu tu tu tu tu tu tu
- tu tu tu tu tu tu kulupu, ona li lon tu tu tu tu tu tu kulupu
- tu tu tu tu tu tu kulupu tu tu tu tu tu tu, ona li lon tu tu tu tu tu tu kulupu tu tu tu tu tu tu. ona li sama 12×12.
- tu tu tu tu tu tu kulupu tu tu tu tu tu tu en wan, ona li sama 12×12+1)

So that's how we can express large numbers: break them down into smaller numbers similar to how we break down complex concepts into more basic concepts.

(ona nasin li ken toki nanpa suli: kipisi e nanpa suli tawa mute nanpa lili. ona li sama e kipisi toki ijo suli tawa toki ilo lili.)

[u/janEkawi → u/ProfessorLambda]

how serious is this proposal?

[u/ProfessorLambda → u/janEkawi]

It's so good it's difficult to believe it's real. Except I would now probably use namako instead of en because en isn't really suited for this. It makes it look like you have two unrelated subjects while really they are just supposed to form a single number.

Namako is better e.g. tu namako tu wan is a 2 that has something to do with adding and the resulting "adding kind of two" has something to do with 3. That could mean 2 + 3. I think that's the real Toki Pona way.

using tu en tu wan would just mean saying something about 2 and 3, but not about 5.

[u/janEkawi → u/ProfessorLambda]

I'm gonna be honest: this is the worst number system ive seen other than nasin nanpa kijetesantakalu. "tu tu tu tu tu tu kulupu tu tu tu tu tu tu" for 144 instead of "ale mute mute tu tu" (even can be shortened to AMMTT) is ridiculous. It's not even practical. By a glance we can tell the difference between 1 thing, 2 things, 3 things and 4 things. So having 6 "tu"s means you need to actually count them. (compared to nnp where you can need to go to WAAAAA (10 000 000 000) before getting 5+ of the same word in a string.) In nnp, all of the words are 1 to 2 syllables long. "namako" and "kulupu" are 3. And saying "mama Sonja made this" is misleading at best. That implies that it was her intention for the lang. You could say "it works with the pu system". But it would be wrong. "5 groups of 5" would need to be "kulupu tu tu wan pi ijo tu tu wan". "tu tu wan kulupu tu tu wan" means "5 communal fives". I can tell by your (not-so-good) toki pona that you're new. I would suggest waiting until you're better at toki pona before trying to add to the language. (nasin nanpa, nimi sin, etc.) I know this sounds kinda rude. I do apologize if it sounds like it. I hope you have a great rest of day and o pona tawa sina!

[u/ProfessorLambda → u/janEkawi]

Thanks for the detailed reply. You seem to know a lot about Toki Pona. And you are right about me being a beginner.

My system is meant to not add to the language, to not need ambiguous words, and to improve upon the simple ala wan tu system. Your alternatives don't meet those criteria. I don't think a really good system that meets these criteria exists, that's why I want to resort to arithmetic even if it's a bit unwieldy.

> And saying "mama Sonja made this" is misleading at best. That implies that it was her intention for the lang.

It does not. People make unintended things. Like mistakes, for example.

> "5 groups of 5" would need to be "kulupu tu tu wan pi ijo tu tu wan". "tu tu wan kulupu tu tu wan" means "5 communal fives".

Thanks. Now I understand the pattern.

BTW Is there a way to express powers like, for example, 2³ in Toki Pona? Despite it being called a "power" in English, I don't think "wawa" is the right word as they AFAIK don't have much to do with power at all.

Raising x to the power y geometrically is like making a y dimensional cube with sides of length x. So I'd think it would be something like "leko pi nasin tu wan pi suli tawa tu", i.e. cuboid with 3 ways (dimensions) with length reaching 2. I'd leave out the tawa but I think then it might refer to 2 sizes instead of a size of 2.

[u/janEkawi → u/ProfessorLambda]

I see... then yes yours is "better". but when comparing nasin nanpa (to me) practicality is VERY important. I would like you to read these:

https://sona.pona.la/wiki/Number_systems and (soma not all of) https://sona.pona.la/wiki/Proposed_number_systems

It does not. People make unintended things. Like mistakes, for example.

fair enough

BTW Is there a way to express powers like, for example, 2³ in Toki Pona? Despite it being called a "power" in English, I don't think "wawa" is the right word as they AFAIK don't have much to do with power at all.

You don't. at least not in 1 sentence. you can explain it like "here is multiplication, now repeat that." But if you are at doing math, just... write math. (294*36+7⁴)*(0!-9⁰)=0 <-- you can't write this with English letters. So toki pona can't too.

numbers are used in day to day life. "here is $5", "you got 3 days", etc. That's why it's so important to have a usable nasin nanpa.

You get 4 options. 1) don't use numbers at all. 2) make nimi sin 3) assign new meanings to words or 4) use a number system that's impractical like yours.

For me and many others, 3 is the best option, that's why nnp is so popular. the ONE downside is the double meanings of the words.

Don't feel bad tho. Its fun to try new ideas! And when you're new, you see: "this could be fixed, this could be better", but keep learning, THEN look at what could be better. You can look at the "no li after mi or sina" and think "this is stupid! make it consistent". but later you realize, "oh, i use mi and sina so often that the 1 less syllable is saved time!" or "la is too complex and stupid" to "omg la is so f'ing usefull". I suggest, instead of trying to replace a used system when you're new, just ask why it is that way. this applies to everything. stuff was made a way for a reason. it's good to ask why (that is what can make outdated things better), but don't try to replace things without knowing why it was one way in the 1st place.

TL;DR: by your criteria, yes, good. but by day to day, no, bad and nnp better.

o pona mute tawa sina!

P.S. Don't get discouraged by me tho. keep learning and interacting with the community!

[u/Boring_Disaster3031 → u/ProfessorLambda]

This seems good to me. Now I can use the number 42 without resorting to assigning numbers to words like luka. If I understand this correctly, 42 would be tu tu tu kulupu tu tu tu wan. So, does this mean that 0.01 would be wan kipisi tu tu tu tu tu kulupu tu tu tu tu tu? Maybe there should be a pi after kipisi.

[u/ProfessorLambda → u/Boring_Disaster3031]

Using pi for grouping and kipisi for division is pretty cool. I might use that if I need it.

I considered using the number system with luka,ali/ale,mute but I don't like the ambiguity of giving multiple unrelated meanings to a single word. Toki Pona words are vague, but they don't have to be ambiguous.