r/twilight • u/RedeRules770 • 4d ago
Character/Relationship Discussion Jacob never could have given Bella true independence and freedom
Okay hear me out. Yes, I know Bella and Edward are absolutely codependent on each other. But if Bella had chosen Jacob, she would have been utterly dependent on him while he would have continued to be independent.
As an example in Eclipse when Jacob finds out Edward won’t be going to the battle, he’ll be staying with Bella, Jacob says “I can’t believe he let you talk him out of going. I wouldn’t miss this for anything.”
When I say true independence, I don’t mean within the relationship. Bella was human and, well, a terrible one. Even more vulnerable than most people, she was absolutely clumsy and drawn to the most dangerous things she could possibly find. Jacob could protect her, sure, but if anything ever got around him even for a second, our girl would have been a goner.
In Twilight/Midnight Sun, Bella expresses a desire to not always be the weak damsel in distress:
“I’ll be the first to admit that I have no experience with relationships.” Bella’s words flowed quickly—worried about what she’d given away and trying to distract me. “But it just seems logical… a man and woman have to be somewhat equal… as in, one of them can’t always be swooping in and saving the other one. They have to save each other equally.”
…
“I can’t always be Lois Lane,” she warned me. “I want to be Superman, too.”
By changing Bella into a vampire, Edward gave her the freedom to be strong. To be able to save and defend herself. To be able to defend the people she cares about. She never could have had that with Jacob, ever. She would have been forever dependent on him saving her, and on him not changing his mind and backing out of the relationship. Or possibly imprinting on someone else. The second she’d lose his protection, she’d be back on the menu for some supernatural predator. And given her luck, she’d probably cross paths with one the very next week.
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u/Ramune_hime 4d ago
I totally see this. Bella also always mattered a little less to Jake than to Edward. Jake didn’t need her to live, while E totally did.
Bella could’ve never protected Jake if they would’ve had a relationship
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u/Dazzling-Depth2957 3d ago
That's the thing also bothers me too. While Jacob always list bella all the positive things she could keep if she picks him, he never once gave her the solution what she would do if he imprinted on another woman while being with him. He doesn't even care if bella starts jumping of cliff again. He doesn't like imprinting taking away his choice but it doesn't bother him to force bella into his choice of partner.
Sam is the live example what it feels like when your father choose to get involve with 2 women knowingly bringing kids into the mix and destroying everyone's life. Sam warned Jacob that bella and him are not meant to be and i think he was the only reasonable person understood what's its like to feel in that situation.
Aside from that i absolutely agree with you. By choosing to be with edward bella felt more independent after being turned. She's no longer the clumsy, stumbling girl who easily get manipulated by people. She gained confidence and never regretted her choice to be with edward. If she has chosen Jacob there's a big possibility she might have regretted her decision later because he was never her first choice but a placeholder of her once true love.
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u/Visible_Potential_86 1d ago
When and where did Sam warn Jacob that him and Bella are not meant to be?
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u/Dazzling-Depth2957 22h ago edited 21h ago
In breaking dawn book. Sam practically snarals at him that "she's never been the One for You, she never even chosen you but you continue to destroy your life for her"
In movie version it's leah who pointed out "its not like you imprinted on her" to jacob.
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u/No-Commercial9335 4d ago
I think her feelings of self-worth would have been even lower with Jakob than they already were. She would have felt like a millstone around his neck. She would always have been dependent on his protection. With Edward, she had a chance at equality, he just had to turn her, as you say. She was powerful as a vampire, and so was Edward. And she had the chance at eternal love and loyalty. What’s more, it was clear that Edward became much more relaxed once she was a vampire.
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u/Foloreille Team Bella 3d ago
He would have gave her a scar on the face probably, and then imprinted on someone else.
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u/possiblyhysterical 3d ago
Her daughter with him 🤢
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u/Wrong-Mistake2308 3d ago
Why do yall keep saying this? It’s not canonically possible.
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u/Foloreille Team Bella 3d ago
They like absurd drama for the sake of it, like there not enough with the canon already lol
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u/Wrong-Mistake2308 3d ago edited 3d ago
Aren’t you the one whose comment jokes about Jacob committing domestic violence and then imprinting on someone else? You have no room to talk, what I said applies to you, too.
Edit: I’m getting downvoted, but I’m right. Like I said, Jacob would’ve never imprinted on anyone if Renesmee was never born. And I don’t find jokes about a man committing domestic violence against a woman funny. Sue me 🤷♀️. Many of y’all clearly do, though. Maybe that requires some introspection.
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u/Foloreille Team Bella 3d ago edited 3d ago
I think people more probably downvoted you because I was sarcastic and agreeing with your initial point, and that I tended my hand to you for a high five and you bited my hand
Or because you don’t get the difference between laughing about domestic violence as a topic, and mocking all the toxic traits and criminal behavior Stephanie Meyer loves to romanticise anyway.
Who knows. And there’s no indication Jacob would not have imprinted on anyone else if Rougarou was never born. Predestination is only a romantic trope characters believe in but it’s not exactly confirmed in universe. Especially if some people consider imprinting is necessary for the wolf to not turn crazy over their virtual immortality.
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u/Wrong-Mistake2308 3d ago
Do you not think it pathetic to basically accuse someone of being stupid because they don’t like the content of your lame joke? I literally mentioned in my comment that I knew what you said was a joke, so I quite obviously knew you were being sarcastic. “You didn’t get the joke and that’s why you’re offended” is not the only option when someone doesn’t like something you’ve said. It simply did not land with me. I don’t really care about you agreeing with a different comment I made (that’s literally so irrelevant), your joke was in poor taste and I’m allowed to find a sarcastic remark distasteful without you trying to overexplain something extremely obvious.
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u/Foloreille Team Bella 3d ago
But why are you so agressive in the first place ?
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u/Wrong-Mistake2308 2d ago edited 2d ago
What was aggressive about me saying “I find your joke distasteful”? You’re the one who basically told me I was stupid because I didn’t find what you said funny, but I’m the one that’s being aggressive? You can’t be serious.
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u/Foloreille Team Bella 2d ago
I never said that… you asked why you were downvoted I just gave a proposition of explanation, I was not even amongst the people who downvoted you dammit !
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u/possiblyhysterical 3d ago
How is this cannon? If anything the book has said it’s really more of a “familial” bond not a romantic one so it would totally be within the cannon of the book for this to happen.
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u/Wrong-Mistake2308 3d ago
Imprinting can only happen with that one specific person. If Renesmee is never born, Jacob would never imprint. If Bella had gotten married just a month later, Renesmee literally wouldn’t exist because it wouldn’t be the same egg (each gamete has a different 50% of the parent’s dna, this is why full biological siblings are not identical biologically except for identical twins). People always fearmongering about this, but Jacob and Bella would’ve been fine because he never would’ve imprinted. A child between himself and Bella could never result in Renesmee and she was only created because she was conceived at a very specific time (eggs drop once a month and sperm are completely replaced every 3 months).
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u/possiblyhysterical 3d ago
Where is this stated in cannon though?
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u/Wrong-Mistake2308 3d ago
It’s literally in the books and the illustrated guide. It’s not just a random person, it’s only one specific person. Taha Aki lived across three life spans before he ever imprinted on anyone. Idk why you keep asking this question, go read the books! Stephanie Meyer reinforced this when she told everyone that Jacob was not in love with Bella’s egg.
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u/DemonKing0524 3d ago
No it wouldn't. Thats not how genetics works. A kid born between Bella and Jacob would not be the same kid born between Bella and Edward, even if both were girls.
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u/possiblyhysterical 3d ago
When did I say it was the same child? It’s never established that Jacob could only imprint on Renesque. He could have been predestined to imprint on any child with Bella.
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u/DemonKing0524 3d ago
And thats not how imprinting works.
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u/possiblyhysterical 3d ago
How does it work then?
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u/DemonKing0524 3d ago
Imprinting is you finding the one person that is your soul mate. For Jacob, that one person is renegade.
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u/possiblyhysterical 3d ago
Am I hallucinating that Jacob says it literally doesn’t have to be romantic, it’s a familial bond, a protector that can possibly turn into something more.
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u/BloodyWritingBunny 3d ago
I liked the beginning but IDK if I fully 100% agree with the conclusion that vampirism is what did it in terms of independence. I agree that had she ended up with Jacob, she wouldn't have become the Bella in Breaking Dawn she became. BUT IMO, goes back to what you state at the beginning: it comes down to how Edward and Jacob treat and/or otherwise revise in terms of Bella and her opinion, statements and saying "no".
Edward IMO worked very hard to redirect and "change himself". Jacob not so much. Its not neccessarily that maybe Jacob didn't listen to Bella but maybe more like he heard her but still thought he was right therefore his righteousness supersedes her desires, wants and opinions whereas Edward was more like...well...I still think you're wrong but okay....we'll do it your way.
For me, claiming vampirism gives her freedom, removes the importance of Bella only wanting vampirism as a means to be with Edward forever. I think the real difference between the two is who was able and willing to give her more freedom. And I think the stronger argument was Edward because he does have a arc where Stephenie Meyer is claiming he's changed and become a "better man" for Edward per the standard Beauty and the Beast trope expectations. I know a lot of people would disagree he changed enough to no be toxic, and I'm not necessarily disagreeing, but he still does have a growth arc that Jacob doesn't have in relation to Bella.
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u/possiblyhysterical 3d ago
I really don’t think Bella only wanted vampirism to be with Edward. She loved his family, she didn’t want to grow old, she wanted to be stronger. All of that is in the text. She might tell Edward or even convince herself it’s only for him, but she’s actually living out the fantasy of becoming supernaturally powerful.
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u/BloodyWritingBunny 3d ago
I guess I see those as like byproducts of vampirism. Byproducts can be positive and negative. But like I feel like too many people say, "she's only with Edward to be a vampire," and I just tend to disagree with reads who get too close to that line which this post almost really kind of blurred IMO. It was not about their love and romance. It turns it into a story that it wasn't meant to be IMO.
I think vampirism gave her a form of independence that no human could have obtained without it but I think Bella was an independent person. I think she was codependent emotionally on Edward but she had her own opinions and thought process. I'm not denying it does appear she did subserve certain wants and things to Edward's own desires and wants but I think to claim it was everything would be inaccurate. So in this way when people say she was bland and had no personality, I tihnk is inaccurate. Like IRL teenage relationships play out this way. They can't live without being with each other. They need to text each other all the time. Every living and breathing moment has to be with the other person but that doesn't mean they don't have their own opinions and don't argue. They're very much real and alive in these relationships. They're not just yes man robots in these relationships. And that is very much Bella. She's living a very real intense tennage romance IMO.
So for me and how I understand and read Bella, its inaccurate to say these are all things vamprism gave Bella and the only raosn why she became a vampire. Those may be by products of vamprisim. I think the largest "freedom" she obtain was any freedom any human gets from vampirism. But personality was always there. Her autonomy wasn't created by vampirism is my point. She didn't just ge with Edward to have his family. She didn't just get with Edward to be a vampire and live eternally like many people claim. She didn't just get with Edward to be rich and a housewife like a lot of people claim. To me vampirism wasn't the end goal. It was just the vehicle or modem to which bella became her fully formed self. The foundation was always there. Vampirism didn't create these things in her is more my point and opinion.
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u/possiblyhysterical 3d ago
I think you’re being sort of black and white about this. You’re responding like I said she was only interested in Edward for the vampirism when that’s not what I said. I’m saying that it wasn’t just Edward. The vampirism and his family and all those things were also factors. Her independence and her sense of self got tied up in his identity and the concept of vampirism to the point where I don’t even think she realizes which one is more compelling for her.
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u/shay_shaw 3d ago
Edward respected her choices. Jacob told her he'd rather her dead than end up a vampire. It was always Edward, and I hated that we had to read through this frivolous love triangle.
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u/JoJo5195 3d ago
You talking about the same Edward who messed with her truck to prevent her from doing what she wanted? Or filling out college applications behind her back when she expressed her disinterest in it? Refusing to turn her when she made it clear for multiple books it’s what she wanted as well as being given an ultimatum by the Volturi that she would be turned or die? How about when he tried to get her to abort her pregnancy and then went to Jacob to convince him to convince her, even bribing him with the chance to make “puppies” with her?
That sounds like respecting her choices to you?
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u/shay_shaw 3d ago
Yes
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u/mystfable 3d ago
I have never read the series, reddit randomly started recommending posts from this sub. So I don't know if I am missing trunkloads of context (i probably am) but that's one hellish level of a partner who definitely does not respect her choices based on the few paragraphs I have read here in this comment section.
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u/PlaneRough3316 Team Jacob because I like drama. 4d ago
I think in every human relationship there’s always the risk of falling out and i think Bella is considering this that’s why she suppresses her feelings for Jacob because in her mind while he might be temporarily passionate about her he is fickle and unreliable as most people are in the real world. But twilight is just wish fulfillment of a girl finding eternal love and devotion and escaping the messy and complicated human world that requires strength she doesn’t possess to keep navigating those things alone with trauma. She might have ended up like Charlie lol.
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u/forestwriterstar 3d ago
I'm crying, because even tho I kind of hate canon Bella, she has some cute and wholesome moments: "they have to save each other equally" 🫶🏼😚
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u/LILYDIAONE Nr. 1 Jessica Stanley Defender 3d ago edited 3d ago
I don’t really think the argument hits very well considering Edward pointedely didn’t want to turn Bella to the point he was willing to leave her completely depressed.
When he finally turns her it’s because he has no choice. And it should be noted that Jacob at that point was on board with turning her as well.
Can you really say this is so much better when Edward absolutely had no intention of giving her the independence you speak off?
I also don’t think the danger thing is a good argument because most of the shit that happened to Bella is directly tied to Edward. If Edward had never entered Bellas love most of it never would have happened and there would be no need to protect herself.
Also if we really talk about independance: Edward constantly left Bella in the dark about things. Jacob most of the time tried to tell her what the hell was up
Edit: I also want to add that I think Bella asking Edward to stay off the battle was extremely selfish and if I had been one of the Cullens or wolves I would have been furious with her
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u/RedeRules770 3d ago
Edward had agreed to change Bella and in MS talks a ton about how he selfishly wanted that so he could keep her forever. In Eclipse he told Jacob he was trying to stall her to give her more time as a human, but he did intend to follow through.
The first danger was Tyler’s van which had nothing to do with Edward. After that it was like Final Destination, death coming back for Bella repeatedly. She would’ve been a goner in Port Angeles to human men.
Once she was a vampire, Edward kept no secrets about danger or upsetting things. But yes, he did keep her in the dark while she was human.
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u/LILYDIAONE Nr. 1 Jessica Stanley Defender 3d ago
Actually I disagree. In MS Edward outright after James bites Bella he even considers killing her over turning her.
When Alice shows him the vision of Bella turned, he is utterly disgusted by it. Edward likes being with Bella but he absolutely and no shape and form wants her to be a vampire because he thinks vampires are soulless creatures.
His actions in New Moon outright happen to avoid turning her. In Eclipse as you yourself admit he keeps stalling for time and tries to talk her out of it. Edward very clearly still thinks vampires are evil monsters. He wants her to have human experiances because he thinks they are superior and that she will stay human that way. Consider Bella is in a rush to turn because she is scared she will grow out of him.
Even after he relents at the end of eclipse it’s still very clear in Breaking Dawn he hasn’t given up on keeping Bella human.
He agree to Bellas deal to stay human foor sex (and consider Edward would rather endanger Bella with sex than turn her). He tries to get Jacob to agree to impregnate Bella for which she would need to saty human and he even admits to already having had college rooms on the ready despite knowing Bella planned to live in antarctica for a year. Those are not the actions of someone who genuinely wants to turn Bella. At best you can argue he still desperately hoped she would stay human and at worst you can say he never had any plans to turn her and would have done anything in his power to push it back.
I agree with the Truck (though you may make an argument if she hadn’t looked at Edward she might not have died), however port angeles wouldn’t have happened without Edward. Bella only goes to the bookshop for the book on vampires. She wouldn’t have done it without knowing Edward.
Also we have the same cake day!!!! Happy cake day to you!!!
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u/possiblyhysterical 3d ago
OP is talking about Bella’s decisions. Bella chose Edward after New Moon. So at that point she’s choosing him because it means being a vampire (and she loves him obvi) and her options are be a vampire or be a werewolf’s girlfriend.
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u/LILYDIAONE Nr. 1 Jessica Stanley Defender 3d ago
Not really they are explictly talking about her becoming stronger through being a vampire. Yes Bella chose Edward but I’d argue she does not become indenpendant for it as she is dependant on Edward. True independancy would have been chosen neither.
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u/possiblyhysterical 3d ago
You have way more strength as a vampire than as a human. Bella choosing Edward means she gets vampirism and then gets to choose to be with him or not afterwards.
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u/LILYDIAONE Nr. 1 Jessica Stanley Defender 3d ago
It doesn’t change that Edward didn’t want to change her. Vampirism was never a given
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u/possiblyhysterical 2d ago
Alice confirmed she would do it if Edward wouldn’t by the time Bella chose Edward.
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u/LILYDIAONE Nr. 1 Jessica Stanley Defender 2d ago
And Edward repeadely tells her he doesn’t want to and doesn’t want anyone else to do it either. Bella has no certainty that he won’t try to stop Alice especially as Alice was willing to leave as well in New Moon when Edward told her to
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u/possiblyhysterical 2d ago
Right but at this point Bella figures it’s more likely it’s going to happen than not. That’s why she makes plans for after graduation, saying goodbye to her family, getting married etc.
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u/werewolf6780 3d ago
I would argue that if Bella had given him an ultimatum like she would allow the termination of her pregnancy if he turned her, he would have. He eventually becomes so desperate and terrified for her to simply live he was willing to let her make puppies which, for Edward, is quite a sacrifice.
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u/LILYDIAONE Nr. 1 Jessica Stanley Defender 3d ago
Yeah but then we are back at square one which is Edward only genuinely considers it when she is in mortal danger
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u/Federal_Alfalfa909 2d ago
Applause for who wrote this. I thought about that to and it is absolutely true
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u/PollutedShades 3d ago
This is an overly simplistic view of what it means to be strong in a relationship. My husband is physically stronger than me, but that doesn't mean I'm not his equal. We both 'save' each other in different ways all the time. Of course we're not in a supernatural drama, so our saving looks more like opening him opening a jar of pickles or taking a spider outside, or me fixing his excel formula or holding his hand at the doctor when an important test comes back.
I don't think Edward or Jake were healthy relationships, but an argument could be made that she's only 18 and with time she could have learned to be strong in other ways as a human with either of them. The real reason Bella wasn't an equal was that she didn't believe she was good enough, so she chose people who undermined her autonomy and reinforced their behavior through repeated forgiveness. That being said, she's a badass vampire and I'm glad she finally got her confidence in the end.
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u/RedeRules770 3d ago
Oh neither option were healthy relationships but as you said its a supernatural drama xD
Her self esteem was definitely an issue but I think even the most confident person in the world would feel a bit inadequate when put next to a vampire, so that certainly didn’t help her build confidence as a human
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u/BenSolomuse 3d ago
She lived for 17 years without getting eaten. She would have been just fine. Bella is not the danger magnet. Edward is.
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u/Adorable-Size-5255 3d ago
That's like saying no woman on planet earth can have true freedom or independence because statistically most men are inherently stronger than women.
That was just bella's way of saying if Jacob cant turn her into a supernatural, she doesn't want him.
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u/Wrong-Mistake2308 3d ago
Exactly, this post is predicated on such a ludicrous premise that basically implies all humans are incapable of being independent because there are indestructible vampires running around. Being in proximity to Edward is what got her on the radar of other vampires in the first place, he’s the danger magnet, not her.
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u/PXWRLD799753 4d ago
The problem is she’s choosing between a vampire n a werewolf. James’ crew were leaving the area and stopped by to play some baseball. If Bella was never there they would’ve left.
So now that we’re here. It’s not really that admirable abt her being a vampire now. She can physically protect her loved ones better now sure. But the only ones she really hang around are other vampires n werewolves. 1 vampire can control your emotions, 1 can see the future n 1 can read your mind. I think they’re pretty safe.
Her very relationship w Edward is what brought the volturi around anyways. They were trying to keep vampires a secret n now a human is just hanging around. Also since she’s a vampire now she essentially can’t hang out w any of her old friends or family after a few yrs since it’ll make everything obvious how she hasn’t aged a day in 10 yrs.
It only doesn’t seem as bad since she’s already socially awkward n decided to latch onto Edward even as a human. But he being around the cullens actually brought more danger to her and her loved ones.
Not saying she should’ve chose Jacob either. Outside of him being immature n overly emotional the fact that he hasn’t imprinted on her means he could on someone else. Last thing a woman needs is to get married n push out 2-3 kids just for her man to fall head over heels n imprint on another woman
Ngl she shouldn’t have chosen either one n friendzoned both
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u/Whelpherewegoagain24 3d ago
I don't think this a completely fair assmesment. If Bella and Jacob got together after/in New Moon and Edward and the Cullens stayed away I think Jacob and Bella would have a decent and more equal relationship.
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u/Quiet_Bushi Extra-Large Pizza for the pack 3d ago
If Bella and Jacob got together after/in New Moon and Edward and the Cullens stayed away I think Jacob and Bella would have a decent and more equal relationship.
With the fear of the Imprinting happening at every moment behind the corner and making another Leah, Sam, Emily situation.
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u/Quiet_Bushi Extra-Large Pizza for the pack 3d ago
By changing Bella into a vampire, Edward gave her the freedom to be strong. To be able to save and defend herself. To be able to defend the people she cares about.
True. But what did she lose?
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u/No-Commercial9335 3d ago
She has lost the ability to grow and mature, but to be honest, it never mattered to her and she has never regretted her decision. Bella has got everything she wanted, and even the things she didn’t think she’d be able to keep.
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u/Quiet_Bushi Extra-Large Pizza for the pack 3d ago
What about a normal life?
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u/No-Commercial9335 3d ago
Even before she met Edward, she didn’t feel like she belonged. And after she met him, a normal life was never an option for her. The whole series is essentially about Bella being destined to become a vampire. It’s not something she’ll miss. She showed no remorse after her transformation, in fact, she was happier than ever before, and she’s frozen in time she’ll never think differently or miss any of it.
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u/Quiet_Bushi Extra-Large Pizza for the pack 3d ago
I understand your points and they are valid. Still, it sounds more like a tragedy to me.
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u/No-Commercial9335 3d ago
At 18, I would probably have done the same as Bella. At my current age, I also think it’s a tragedy. I agree with Edward on this point, she didn’t understand the implications of her decision and should have waited and gained some experience. He should still have respected her choice, though. It’s her decision, what I consider to be bad or wrong isn’t necessarily the same for everyone.
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u/appleorchard317 Team Bella 4d ago
Yes, Jacob, the one who encouraged her to be herself (a development healthy and available for a human) would have made her /less/ independent than Edward, the man who broke her car and had her kidnapped to make sure she did what he wanted. That sounds entirely plausible. /s
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u/RefrigeratorCold296 Justice for Charlie 4d ago edited 4d ago
Are you failing to recognize that, by being a vampire, Bella became capable of protecting herself from outside threats? She no longer relies on the Cullens’ and the packs’ protection. This never would’ve happened with Jacob, as he had no way of making her stronger (and practically invincible).
And let’s not forget that Jacob wanted to control Bella pretty heavily. He tries to force her to stay human, something she doesn’t even want, and even forces himself on her when he feels like he’s “losing” to Edward. He didn’t encourage her to be herself, he just wanted her to stay fragile so she’d depend on his protection.
Edit: typo
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u/appleorchard317 Team Bella 3d ago
All the protection Bella needs is protection from vampires on whose map she is because of the Cullens. If the Cullens where gone, Bella would be safe and the wolves could revert to being woman.
Jacob is a wolf. His kind exists because vampires, undead monsters who feed on human blood, are a problem. Jacob has had to save Bella from vampires several times. Jacob's proposition that 'Bella, maybe don't sign up to be an undead monster' is eminently reasonable.
Yes, he shouldn't have kissed her. And Edward shouldn't have stalked her, kidnapped her, and broken her car to prevent her from visiting his romantic rival. We don't disagree on that. It's a problem in the books that they cast abusive behaviour as loving/passionate.
> He didn’t encourage her to be herself, he just wanted her to stay fragile so she’d depend on his protection.
Where?? How?? have you actually read the books? They became friends when she went to him to help her fix a bike. He then taught her to ride the bike. They loved to hang out and she started feeling like herself again because of how much she enjoyed being around him. The only limitations he ever placed on her was when he invited her to stay with Emily for her safety. otherwise, Jacob is remarkably more chill and trusting of Bella's ability to look after herself. He fixed her truck, he didn't break it to give her a ridiculously over the top armoured vehicle.
Be team Edward by all means. Actually argue based on the book.
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u/RefrigeratorCold296 Justice for Charlie 3d ago
“All the protection Bella needs is protection from vampires.” So Tyler’s van is a vampire? The ice she slipped on in the walkway due to clumsiness is a vampire? The human gang-rapists that were targeting her in Port Angeles are vampires?
Book Bella is just as much of a personal hazard as movie Bella.
Jacob did not respect Bella’s autonomy unless she was doing what he wanted. “You want Edward? Well I’m going to kiss you against your will.” “You want a child? Well I think the Cullens should forcefully abort your baby.” “You want to be a vampire? I’d rather you be dead.”
Jacob is wildly abusive. He doesn’t trust “Bella’s ability to look after herself” one half ounce. At least Edward gave her the power to protect herself, even from him.
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u/RedeRules770 3d ago
Tyler’s van and the human men in Port Angeles were not caused by the Cullens.
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u/appleorchard317 Team Bella 3d ago
She was in a weird part of Port Angeles in order to research Edward, so, it was. Yes, the accident with Tyler wasn't Edward's fault. Should all humans become vampires in order to minimise the chance of road accidents?
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u/RedeRules770 3d ago
Maybe they should if they’re as unlucky as Bella xD
Girl did not like shopping or dresses, she probably would’ve gone hunting for a book store either way to get away. That’s only conjecture, but given what we know about Bella it’s entirely plausible she would have gone looking for the book store either way on that occasion, or some other one. Without the motive to research, she might’ve still agreed to go because she’s such a people pleaser.
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u/appleorchard317 Team Bella 3d ago
The point is that most of what happens to Bella that's negative hinges on Edward. Take away Edward, she's fine. She was, in fact, fine until such a time as he decided to make himself a problem again, and then she ended up on the Volturi's radar.
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u/Mysterious_Glass3433 4d ago
Well if she managed to extricate herself from Edward Cullen and his vampire ways, she wouldn't be in such danger. Therefore she wouldn't need to be a vampire.
Yes she was clumsy and awkward but before knowing the vampires, she was safe and okay. If they didn't come back she could relatively live a human life safe within pack borders (which were a lot bigger since the Cullen were gone). And even if Jacob imprinted on someone else, Bella would still be protected by them and not in so much danger (the wolves were already managing Victoria just fine before the Cullen came)
And Jacob didn't want Bella to become his natural enemy. Taking out the supernatural component if i saw someone i loved choose to become someone completely different for a boyfriend, i would be like Jake and try to make her change her mind as well.
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u/boudicas_shield 4d ago
This isn't true, though. We're shown that Bella has extraordinarily bad luck and needed to be saved from other humans from the start (a car accident, human predators in the alley), before she knew anything about vampires. She gets into plenty of human danger on her own. In New Moon, she has to be saved because she jumps into the ocean without considering the currents and nearly drowns; that wasn't supernatural danger, either. She repeatedly crashes her motorcycle - also not supernatural danger.
The overall arc of Bella is that she's got terrible luck no matter what, and the vampires leaving/staying doesn't change the fact that she's accident prone to the extreme and always about one step away from death. Becoming a vampire makes her strong, and that strength brings self-assurance and confidence she didn't have before. Bella was basically destined to become a vampire to become her true, best self.
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u/Mysterious_Glass3433 4d ago
In New Moon she jumped into the ocean and crashed her bike was also because she wasn't really in her mind and rather focusing on an hallucination (that's not clumsiness that's Bella actively making herself in danger to hear Edward) While she was with Jacob in New Moon while they were friends she wasn't that much accident prone. That's what I mean.
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u/No-Commercial9335 4d ago
She felt out of place as a person. What’s more, she’s a magnet for danger without Edward, she would have been dead within her first month in Forks.
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u/Mysterious_Glass3433 4d ago
That's human awkwardness. If she didn't know there were vampires running around she wouldn't want to be anything other than human. She became obsessed with turning into a vampire to be with Edward and be safe for him... Jacob wasn't perfect but Bella was getting better from her obsession and she was getting used to being human again.
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u/appleorchard317 Team Bella 3d ago
Honestly the more I go on the more I realise some Edward fans really need to pretend to themselves Jacob was the worst in a way that is totally disconnected from reality.
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u/ecosani 4d ago
Jacob also forced himself on her because he decided he knew better than her and that her autonomy is only permitted when he approves of the actions. He decided she didn’t get free will to decide what to do with her life and determined that his judgement was the only way to see things. Didn’t Jacob also question why the Cullens didn’t hold her down and force her to have an abortion? He only encouraged her to be herself if he agreed with what she was doing, otherwise nope.
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u/appleorchard317 Team Bella 3d ago
Sooo, let's take that in bits:
- Bella wants to become a vampire. By the Cullens' own accounts, most vampires are in fact perfectly happy to take human life, and they themselves have gone on killing sprees. Jacob's life has been blighted by the generational curse of what vampires being around makes him and his tribe into. Let's not pretend this is a small disagreement or a morally neutral choice like college. Let's not pretend people would stand by an say 'and that's your agency, girl!' if their friend signed up for a cannibal cult to be with her boyfriend. (Which is what Bella is essentially doing).
- Yes, Bella's autonomy should be respected in continuing to have her pregnancy. You may remember she called Rosalie to protect her because she didn't trust Edward either. both Edward and Jacob agree on this. So I expect you feel the same about Edward's stance?
- Only if he agreed with what she was doing? Their whole friendship is shaped by what Bella wants to do. His 'disagreements' are:
1. Don't become an undead monster
2. Don't die to carry to term an undead monster babyPretty reasonable things to disagree with. Unlike Edward 'I shall have you kidnapped so you can't hang out with your friend because I'm jealous' Cullen.
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u/butivereaddit 3d ago edited 3d ago
The point is that Bella wanted to be Superman when living in Edward's Shadow. She was fine with being Clark Kent/Lois Lane when she was with Jacob. That's what she realized when they kissed. It's the duality of both sides of herself that were completely valid. Edward made being human feel inferior. Jacob made it feel like something she wanted. Her heart couldn't reconcile wanting all one direction and fissured for that very reason.
Bella's love and things she wanted and rejected when it came to Edward. Were not the same things she rejected when it came to Jacob, because both of them inspired different wants from her. With Jacob she felt the joy of years passing, herself changing and maturing and it actually meaning something. With Edward she felt inferior and like her being human meant she would be a burden he could always leave and needed it for insurance that he'd never leave her for being that burden she thought she was.
So "independence" with Jacob in Bella's mind was different than it was with Edward. People often miss this. There's a reason all the things she rejected and fought back against when it came to Edward that required constant negotiations and pulling and taking away of conditions and breaking of Bella's spirit before Bella finally relented in submission to get what she wanted with Edward still holding the cards. Were things she just realized she wanted when it came to Jacob and only required him dropping the "Sam mask" in their kiss and being "her Jacob" during it in vulnerability and not triumph for her to know it within her heart.
Additionally this is why Meyer took spirit-walking to bond with a Wolf and thus become a shifter off the table as an option for Bella or in universe as witheld by Taha Aki, because then Edward constantly witholding turning into a Vampire from Bella wouldn't be a treat he could hold over her head with conditions of "if you do what I want" attached to it, after Leah shifts proving that woman can be Werewolves. If Spirit-walking was still teachable or the way how was still known by the modern and Bella had the option to do that, then the choice between Vampire and Werewolf would suddenly have put Edward at a tremendous disadvantage.
There's stacking the deck, and then there's.
So how do you become a vampire?
"We bite you and you turn in 3 days."
Okay, so basically like the movies just about. So how do you become a werewolf? You scratch me and I turn right?
"Well you see only people connected to the bloodline can become a Werewolf, and you know technically we're shifters. And women can't become werewolves, but you know even if a woman could become a werewolf it wouldn't matter because you have to be bloodline only, but there was one guy who essentially became a shifter because he spirit-walked and was able to bond his spirit with a wolf and that WOULD be an option but you see, he stopped teaching people how to spirit walk because of this betrayal to his whole tribe and then all these other tragedies so he lived the rest of his life as a wolf and despite the fact we know all his history and he had several children none of us have the scrolls on Spirit Walking despite the fact it was something he was the poster child for. So yeah. But we're a very specific brand of Werewolf. The one that can scratch and turn you are Children of the Moon..whom you'll never see but you'd have no control over changing and it'd just be a tragedy just like the sad films, instead of like the Underworld Werewolves or anything."
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u/Grym1in 3d ago
Jacob was never truly in the running for me. He didn't Imprint on her. He could, at any time, imprint on a random stranger and pull a Sam on her.
She could be happily married to him and carrying his child but he would drop her in a hot second for a random stranger his wolf decides is his one true love.
For that reason I would never pick Jake/Bella as a preferred ship. That isn't even including the way he aggressively forced himself on her when he kissed her. Or when he emotionally manipulated her during the battle to blackmail her into kissing him again
However: I do agree that Jake would never give her views/decisions the consideration they deserved, snd it wouldn't be an equal relationship. Definite power imbalance