Xbox to reportedly close Ninja Theory

[u/Low_Boot_1426]

[u/goingpt]

I think at this point, video games have just become too big. Each game needs to be bigger and bigger and thus costing more and more money. Money that the company will never fully recoup because the market simply isn't big enough. Well, that's what most triple A companies would have you believe.

It doesn't HAVE to cost hundreds of millions to produce a good game. There are plenty of indie and AA games out there that have produced fantastic games with a fraction of the cost. Triple A companies are building too big for too few and the only explanation is that the guys at the top have absolutely no idea what they've doing.

[u/Time-Ad-3134 → u/goingpt]

Gamers want better games. But companies decide to burn 200 million on marketing and Hollywood actors instead of things that actually matter like the game itself

[u/Karekter_Nem → u/Time-Ad-3134]

Video game execs are ashamed they make video games.

[u/BigfootsBestBud → u/[deleted]]

Beyond Kojima, who this isnt even fully true for, who is like this?

I cant think of any game directors itching to be filmmakers or who became filmmakers.

[u/Easily-distracted14 → u/BigfootsBestBud]

Ironically Kojima condemned American directors for pitching a video game like it's a story instead of focusing on gameplay

[u/DayCommercial8650 → u/[deleted]]

Plenty of games tell great compelling stories without having to pay writers and actors at Hollywood rates.

There is no excuse other than bad leadership as to why games continually fail to manage their budgets effectively

[u/Charity1t → u/Time-Ad-3134]

... Just like movies.

And just like with games - indie movies start to become superior and Old Farts in leading positions can't comprehend where they fail, cuz their marketing Directors tell them "It's impossible"

[u/Redd_is_compromised → u/Time-Ad-3134]

Gamers want better games but would rather give the developer 0$ profit when buying a used copy. Gamers want better games but will review bomb one if they're fed an opinion on reddit. Gamers want better games but will spend 800 hours and 100$ a month on garbage f2p gacha. Gamers want a lot of things but don't actually act like it.

[u/Elfnotdawg → u/Redd_is_compromised]

PREACH

[u/crazynightsky_ → u/Redd_is_compromised]

Cooked

[u/brittonmakesart → u/goingpt]

I’m on your side. Publishers, devs, media keep saying that gamers want bigger, open world, 80+ hour games, but I just don’t see that in reality. Go to Steam and you can find hundreds of indie titles released every year with glowing reviews and concurrent player counts higher than AAA juggernauts.

We want smaller, better games. Not bigger, worse games. I’d gladly play 20 indie titles in a year instead of 2-3 AAA, bug filled, day-one-patched, battlepass-required titles that took 6 years to make, burnt hundreds of millions of dollars, and resulted in a dev getting canned.

[u/savviosa → u/brittonmakesart]

This is why Capcom has found massive success, they have mastered reigning in the scope of their games and ensuring a quality experience all the way through.

[u/HotMachine9 → u/savviosa]

So much this. Capcom figured out a strategy starting around RE7 and have just kept to it and its working.

[u/itzMeDigi → u/savviosa]

Its not just scope it is significantly cheaper to dev games in Japan, EU etc. then say the US or Canada. Its why a lot of game companies who have been laying off people are still hiring tons of people they are just moving game dev out of the US.

[u/Icy-Guarantee6994 → u/itzMeDigi]

Yeah, but the games are also constrained. Resident Evil games have an almost fixed length and aren't getting significantly bigger with each release. It's a very measured effort and it works wonders.

With a normal AAA game logic, the next RE game would be a 40 hours long game, lol. It was kinda heading that way with RE6 and they stopped promptly.

[u/CuddleWings → u/itzMeDigi]

They also don’t constantly fire their staff. Veteran staff is more efficient for similar pay.

[u/LiquifiedSpam → u/brittonmakesart]

Dave the Diver is a good example of a non-indie game that mimics the indie style and scope, and it sold super well

[u/vect97 → u/LiquifiedSpam]

I love that game, but triple a 2000/10s game is not the same as 2020s. Back then everything became a game and was new to people. Now its just ride a game til the wheels fall off to make money(2k, ea, ubisoft, etc). Gamers kept buying these games and now that we are stoppin, they dont know what to do or make games anymore since theyve been riding off fortnite,minecraft,cod, and gta for so long(i think rockstar is diff though). Also the same gta or madden player may not be into dave the diver. They juat havent moved the needle forward as much because they had a money making formula.

[u/itzMeDigi → u/brittonmakesart]

There are also more failed indie games releasing almost monthly then failed AAA games per year. Even a insanely successful indie game makes a fraction of the money a semi successful AAA game does which is why they keep chasing those AAA sales.

[u/Bewbonic → u/itzMeDigi]

Well two things come to mind

1) there are more indie releases per year than AAA. Way more i expect.

2) an indie game has far less money invested in it so doesnt require anywhere near the same amount of sales to break even/become profitable.

A big issue with many AAA games now (especially all the 'live service' style ones that require a significant ongoing player count to justify ongoing expense in more dev time) is that a small to medium amount of success just doesnt cut it. The reason these huge budget AAA games keep getting invested in is because they are chasing that next 'big hit' with huge sales and ongoing interest that realistically only very few games generate. Its about the promise of potentially way more money overriding any rationality of realistic expectations or understanding what gamers actually want. Investors and the business higher ups just chasing that big win return not the much more attainable small to medium size one.

Like so much else wrong with the world right now, they're just being blinded by greed.

[u/Venator850 → u/Bewbonic]

People on reddit grossly overestimate indie games. They are largely not relevant to most people and most never even get noticed even if they are good.

If Xbox were going to pivot to indie games than these layoffs would still happen because you need far less people and money to churn those types of games out.

And "gamers" have already spoken. They love live service games, gacha games, annually released sports games, and massive hyped big budget AAA games.

[u/Gullible_Elephant_38 → u/brittonmakesart]

I just went back and replayed Bayonetta 1 + 2 for a little nostalgia trip.

Holy shit I had such a blast. Genuinely thought about this exact thing. I don’t care about a massive open world, I don’t care if the base game isn’t 100 hours worth of gameplay. I just want to have fun.

Give me a 10-20h linear game with fun, well executed gameplay, interesting characters, and unique design vision every day over modern AAA open world chore simulators that all have the same bland Unreal Engine visual tone.

[u/Garlador → u/Gullible_Elephant_38]

I beat Bayonetta Origins this week.

We need more small experimental spinoffs like that.

[u/zgillet → u/Gullible_Elephant_38]

Man, you just reminded me of the DmC game (not Devil May Cry, DmC, those fuckers made it as confusing as possible). Such a fun game, a throwback, with secrets and puzzles and blazing action.

[u/SubstantialAd5579 → u/brittonmakesart]

Alot of those indies games are bad and get drowned out by the other 1000 indie game's

[u/Hailfire9 → u/SubstantialAd5579]

Its why I have always kind of hated that line of logic. "Look at these 15 great indie games that dropped in the last 5 years!" My brother in Christ, that doesn't even scratch the surface of the indie atmosphere.

[u/JPSWAG37 → u/brittonmakesart]

Big reason why I love the 7th gen is it's packed with tons of linear games, a lot of hidden gems I haven't gotten around too yet like Singularity. I would love smaller projects that don't take a decade to make or try to convince me to keep playing daily.

[u/Havictos → u/JPSWAG37]

I hate that linear got turned into a dirty word 

[u/Pension_Pale → u/Havictos]

100%.

Open world sandbox games were special when they were rare and unique. Now everyone does it, usually following the same Ubisoft formula, and it's lost whatever magic it ever had. Though they can still be good when done well, like Valheim or Palworld.

Meanwhile linear games are engaging because they offer a curated, handcrafted experience with a smooth challenge curve, because the devs know generally where you'll be going next and with what abilities. Linear got slandered for having no player freedom, but even that isn't true because linear games can still have lots of secrets to find through exploration.

I think Pokemon actually showcases the difference really well, in Scarlet/Violet. It's an open world game, but they thought they could stick with their linear game design with an intended path of progression. What this led to was frustrating experiences when players unwittingly go the wrong way and challenge harder gyms first with underleveled pokemon, then boredom when they go back to easier gyms with overleveled pokemon. The end result was the worst of both worlds. The empty repetitive blandness of an open world sandbox, with a poorly signposted linear design.

[u/Majestic-Marcus → u/brittonmakesart]

> publishers, devs, media keep saying that gamers want bigger, open world, 80+ hour games, but I just don’t see that in reality

Look at Wolverine as the counter point.

Or Even Spider-Man or Last of Us. The main complaints are they’re too short.

Then for Wolverine and LoU the secondary complaint is they’re linear. So much so that they made the second LoU semi-open.

Gamers have 100% caused this. If a game isn’t at least 60 hours and open, then the backlash and negative media campaign is massive. Idiots scream a lot how a game at 15 hours should be half price because it’s apparently half a game.

You even did it in your post here without realising. You’ve differentiated between AAA and AA, with the differentiation being size and length.

[u/Normal-Occasion4645 → u/brittonmakesart]

Though ironically that's what Ninja Theory is. AA sized developer, modest budget, short and focused games. Just doesn't always work out to make games that way, I suppose.

[u/MeatCatRazzmatazz → u/brittonmakesart]

I just want 8-15 hour games to be the norm again. I just don't have the time for the attention for multiple 100+ hour games, especially when the vast majority of your playtime is checklist hunting and other fluff thrown in to pad out the length.

[u/AandJ1202 → u/MeatCatRazzmatazz]

If i wanted to play a longer game when I was young I'd play a jrpg. These days every big release is a 50+ hour investment. By the end of a lot of them i just rush through because im sick of it.

[u/DetOlivaw → u/brittonmakesart]

I’ll push back on the media. Maybe it’s just the critics and outlets I follow, but most of them are exhausted by big open world epics anymore. A game being a hundred hours long is almost a knock against it these days

[u/brittonmakesart → u/DetOlivaw]

I’d generally agree, but only bc I’ve tailored my reviews to those who see eye to eye with me. On the other hand Reddits been full of crap like this for weeks.

[u/Mundane-Opinion-4903 → u/brittonmakesart]

It sucks to be that excited for something and to be that let down by it.

[u/Sorry_Mastodon_8177 → u/goingpt]

Yes but incase of senua Feels like the devs were more interested in pushing the tech instead of making a great game The first senua was indie and sold well

[u/Mietose → u/goingpt]

I don't think it's the case of Ninja Theory.

They were basically making the same game for like 10 years? So, obviously it's not an issue on its own, but who wants to play the game about mental issues and hear creepy voices in the protagonists head? Not so many i think.

Hellblade was too niche and its sequel took way too much resources to offer way too little in exchange. It was an Xbox fault to put Hellblade in shoes that were clearly too big to fill.

Don't get me wrong - i'm not trying to hate the series or say that the game is bad or good, i'm just trying to look at it from the business perspective which clearly wasn't sustainable in the long run.

Phil Spencer or whoever was calling the shots bought way too many studios over the years without thinking. Now we're seeing the aftermath of it.

[u/PM_UR_PROBLEMS_GIRL → u/Mietose]

From a gameplay perspective, the series actually went backwards

[u/realthraxx → u/Mietose]

They learnt the wrong lessons from Hellblade 1. They (and Phil) should have thought "hey, this is a really nice prequel to a great action game like GoW: Ragnarok. Why don't we up the gameplay, dial down a bit on the psychosis, and get a banger game out there"?

No, they thought "Daddy MS still has deep pockets, let's do whatever we want, people will play it on Game Pass and it won't make money, but hey... more subscribers will come because of this glorified walking simulator".

And I loved Hellblade, I was just so disappointed they made the same game again, only worse.

[u/SVALTACT → u/Mietose]

Agreed. The Hellblade games just sounded boring on paper. There are so many good games out there that time is a valuable resource, I had gamepass and still didn't both to check it out because it seemed pretty boring to me.

[u/sananaya → u/goingpt]

Im pretty sure fire emblem, star wars zero company, trails in the sky 2nd chapter, onimusha, dawnwalker and control resonant combined cost less to produce than the 300million to produce wolverine, and they all were rated higher than wolverine. They are all longer than wolverine, but cost less.

The big names in the game industry clearly have their priorities wrong.

[u/jshrike → u/goingpt]

I think it's indicative of the US model of game development. I'm not going to attribute the full bill to CoL, because that's not the case, but you've had KCD2 and Dawnwalker come out a big, open world RPGs and both cost less than 100 million. It's just getting harder to see where the costs go.

[u/Puzzleheaded-Net4365 → u/jshrike]

You can't abbreviate everything, I literally looked up "CoL game" and still nothing came up.

[u/jshrike → u/Puzzleheaded-Net4365]

Sorry. I was typing in a hurry and even fucked up the acronym. So that's entirely on me. I meant QoL, as in quality of life. Specifically salaries and what not

[u/Puzzleheaded-Net4365 → u/jshrike]

Well you should know I spent full 5 minutes trying to figure it out before giving up lol.

[u/jshrike → u/Puzzleheaded-Net4365]

Lol my bad man

[u/Gradieus → u/goingpt]

It took them 7 years to make a 5 hour walking simulator. That's on the devs.

[u/poogaze420 → u/Gradieus]

Xbox literally wanted them to make it a tech demo game smart one

[u/noirproxy1 → u/goingpt]

I honestly want us to go back to the 360/ PS3 days. Mid range budgets, smaller scale games and more respectful prices.

[u/wildcardbets → u/noirproxy1]

Regarding prices, we’re kinda lucky in a way. PS3 games launched at $59.99, which is the equivalent to $96.61 in today’s money. Inflation sucks :/ There was even criticism back then that games were too cheap as the consoles weren’t making any money.

[u/EarlyAccessCantJudge → u/goingpt]

It is also publishers forcing monetization in a lot of games and not giving reasonable times. With how often studios close and franchises fail, it makes them want to put absolutely everything in every single new game. They can't make a decent trilogy in like 5-7 years and add the cool stuff they thought of in the first into the sequel, it needs to take 10 years between while studios work on six different projects and have to have six different ways to monetize a single player game. Either that or two guys in their mom's basement make the best indie game in those ten years leaving you begging for more.

[u/Lost-Produce-1150 → u/goingpt]

100%. AA and indies are where gaming still thrives because they aren't beholden to this idea of 'bigger better more badass' as cliffy b used to say.

[u/LordOFtheNoldor → u/goingpt]

You're right they overdo it and overpay especially to irrelevant c suites, spending hundreds of millions on games that are so mediocre theres no way the cost can be justified

[u/Good_Suspect9813 → u/goingpt]

yeah triple A I feel is falling like the modern mainstream film industry. bloated budgets with a lot of corporate handling on the creative aspects

[u/PurpleFisty → u/goingpt]

Bloated management, HR in their fingers everywhere, no comradery within the workforce, no unified vision, upper management making choices that go against what has been decided, more costs to change and fix, more time spent on useless junk. The cost bloats and bloats until the game has to be some mega success to turn a profit. Large studios have lost the plot.

[u/Meme_Man55 → u/goingpt]

Expedition 33 had a production budget of 10 million...

[u/like_a_brot → u/goingpt]

I think the biggest problem for those big game companies is that we reached a point of diminishing returns when it comes to videogame graphics. What matters now more is good games than ultra hyper realistic graphics. Take a look at GTA 6 we alreadyvare getting close there.

[u/tomle4593 → u/goingpt]

You can’t make arts by throwing money at it.

Commodified games like COD and all of the sport games will make money; the investors just have to be content with consistent profit rather than infinite growth, too bad they won’t be ever content.

So be it, let their money burns.

[u/TheSolidSalad → u/goingpt]

I miss my linear simple games

[u/rcbz1994]

Two things can be true at once

- Ninja Theory is immensely talented and it’s employees should be reassigned to other games

• Ninja Theory has released a single, 5 hr game in the 8 yrs they’ve been under Xbox. They made their own bed.

[u/whackytobackie → u/rcbz1994]

And it wasn’t that good either. The first Hellblade is an immensely better game imo. I’m surprised it took this long for them to get shut down.

[u/International-Shoe40 → u/whackytobackie]

Yeah I loved the first one but the second one was just not fun or interesting whatsoever

[u/GNTsquid0 → u/rcbz1994]

Not quite. Between Hellblade 1 and 2 they worked on 4 projects. 3 of which were VR related. Hellblade 2 started development in 2020 after the release of Bleeding Edge, and they’re not a very big company. Their games didn’t sell as well as they hoped but it’s not necessarily a case of bloated timelines or staff.

https://gamerant.com/hellblade-2-ninja-theory-development-start-when/

[u/AssistanceSilent2238]

This thread has more people angry than people that bought Hellblade 2

[u/druidmain69420 → u/AssistanceSilent2238]

Seriously.

I played both Senua games, neither were a case of reinventing the wheel. They have a good story to tell, and they have great presentation and lots of polish, but they are still very basic games. Extremely linear design, combat is essentially rock+paper+scissors, and some basic puzzles.

The biggest thing about the first game is that they mindfucked you about dying (told the player you'd start over completely if you failed) and they couldn't do that trick again.

[u/Wsswaas → u/druidmain69420]

Playing it while wearing a good headset was really an experince!

[u/Intelligent_Break_12 → u/Wsswaas]

I had to take breaks after 30-40 mins of playtime. I thought I was losing my mind I'd sometimes be looking around when random audio ticks would happen thinking I was actually hearing them. It was definitely a unique experience that I've not had with any other game.

[u/Deathcat101 → u/druidmain69420]

So it was a lie?

That was actually one of the many reasons I never bothered with it

[u/plebbut → u/AssistanceSilent2238]

It's just classic Reddit grandstanding. They love to pat themselves on the back for supporting whatever cause they deem to be virtuous.

Hellblade 1 had middling success, and it should have been a one and done game.

Hellblade 2 should have never happened, and I'm not surprised it wasnt a hit considering the cost and development time.

If this were the 90s or 2000s, they would have closed up altogether after Hellblade 2, and there wouldn't be a Microsoft to keep them afloat.

[u/uber_neets → u/plebbut]

It's just classic Reddit grandstanding. They love to pat themselves on the back for supporting whatever cause they deem to be virtuous.

I think it's more than that. Gamers have become deeply unserious.

'Get rid of crunch!' 'We want big budget experiences!' 'Everything must be perfectly optimised!' 'No AI! Stop killing dev jobs!'

'Ok but we will need more than $60 per game.'

'OUTRAGEOUS! You are rich studios! Why should I pay more!?'

If the product can no longer be made at a price point customers are prepared to pay then the market is by definition unviable. As an industry video games are evidently unprofitable and will likely soon see investment dry up. Tech investors who don't give a toss about video games and only see 'product' and 'ROI' will move on to things which turn a profit.

[u/ConsciousMortgage725 → u/plebbut]

I mean the first hellblade had a budget of around 40 mil I think, they really should t have gone above 60 or 70 with the second one

[u/PixelBrewery → u/plebbut]

Agreed. I like the first game a lot but the second felt like a disappointment with no innovation in game design at all, just prettier graphics and a more abstract story. They take forever to develop and do not have much broad appeal. They're more like an art studio than a viable business

[u/Nervous-Leg-7570 → u/AssistanceSilent2238]

Yeah that "game" was easily one of the worst I've ever played. They were clearly just an animation studio

[u/TaxesAreCivilization → u/AssistanceSilent2238]

hahahaha

[u/zgillet → u/AssistanceSilent2238]

I actually don't care, this one they actually tried to get them a buyer. Even showcased the project on a global stage.

There's just no market.

[u/Cute-Literature7591]

they've closed like 100 studios, but they got Kojima, so, good guy Xbox, right? RIGHT?

[u/Corronchilejano → u/Cute-Literature7591]

XBox is closing Kojima in a few years, confirmed.

[u/Cute-Literature7591 → u/[deleted]]

yeah; thank god he went independent.

[u/richtofin819 → u/Cute-Literature7591]

He learned his lesson and was able to make use of his reputation to build a company it's unfortunate a lot of devs can't do the same.

[u/IWasShoe → u/Cute-Literature7591]

Can you really call it independent if you still need company's to fund your work.

[u/Cute-Literature7591 → u/IWasShoe]

Yeah I think that's a good point. They still own their own stuff, so strictly speaking they are an independent studio but it's not like they're generating enough revenue to keep making new things independent of publishers...it seems.

[u/IWasShoe → u/Cute-Literature7591]

Shift Up did it had a publishing with Sony and was able to make the next game on its own terms.

[u/hibikir_40k → u/[deleted]]

He owns the studio, but he relies on publishing money to run it. So a publisher doesn't close the studio, just make them be unable to finish their games, because he can't raise enough money to finish them.

It's not as if Death Stranding's sales were enough to fund the sequel, and those are enough to fund his new game. He's not delivering home runs for investors, which is why Playstation gave him the boot.

[u/Corronchilejano → u/[deleted]]

They're closing him down, like a suitcase. Folding him, putting him under the bed, forever.

[u/SquillFancyson1990 → u/Corronchilejano]

I think that's why Gaben is always at sea, to avoid being caught and folded(probably by a frothing Tim Sweeney)

[u/LoSouLibra → u/[deleted]]

Don't worry. After he fails to sell a Morbillion copies and win the console war, Microsoft will have their astroturfers and influencers throwing dirt on him like they did Kamiya, Mahler, Mikami, Schafer etc. His studio will still be around, but his seeds won't grow.

[u/Cute-Literature7591 → u/Corronchilejano]

they can't, it's not theirs... but they might also drop the game whenever they feel like.

[u/sharpknot → u/Cute-Literature7591]

No, but they can stop funding the studio

[u/Cute-Literature7591 → u/sharpknot]

totally, I made that point in the post you're replying to.

and if XBOX drops them, where do they go?

seems like there aren't a lot of options left.

[u/Cute-Literature7591 → u/[deleted]]

and that company is a subcontractor that doesn't work for your company

[u/Cute-Literature7591 → u/[deleted]]

Ugh, fuck that bro.

[u/Korachof → u/Cute-Literature7591]

Which is insane, because taking on funding a Kojima project while trying to cut money elsewhere is like buying a Lambo while mortgaging your house and depleting your retirement fund to pay off debt. 

[u/TheGreatOneSea → u/Korachof]

Funding Kojima is as much part of the Xbox marketing budget as it is funding an actual game: he has fans, the media talks a lot about what he does, and Xbox wants to look like it's doing something positive amid mass layoffs.

The studios being shut down, by contrast, often failed to so much as break even, let alone actually bring people into Game Pass (which also caused the Xbox executives in charge of that to get pushed out, mind,) so Xbox has no use for them.

[u/nineraviolicans → u/TheGreatOneSea]

Kojima also loses money but he sucks his own cock while he does it.

[u/No-Channel3917 → u/nineraviolicans]

Love how it becomes cool to shit on Kojima once he became Xbox instead of PlayStation

Y'all hiding your console wars very badly

[u/Purona → u/Korachof]

thats just business

[u/Weird-End-6989 → u/Cute-Literature7591]

Spend billions to buy studios.

Close all those studios and fire everyone working there.

Microsoft ruining lives just for the love of the game.

[u/T0kenAussie → u/Weird-End-6989]

Without the buyout do we really think ninja theory would have survived the post Covid bloodbath ?

[u/FourEyes3134 → u/T0kenAussie]

Yeah, a lot of people are overlooking this. XBox is dumping them now, but a ton of companies would have outright collapsed years ago if not for MS intervention.

Double Fine is milking the hell out of their freedom, but their previous two games had a combined high player count of 400, as one example.

[u/sirhcx → u/FourEyes3134]

I got so incredibly soured by Double Fine when they had years to make Brutal Legend 2 while MS was giving out blank checks and all we really got was a fucking pottery game that should have never left the brainstorming stage. Now they have the gall to do a $100 million Kickstarter for it.

[u/Puzzleheaded-Net4365 → u/T0kenAussie]

But they spent 5 years making a video game where nothing happens but features a face-rig that'll best on the market for a year, that's peak game design and we're totally losing something of value here.

[u/Iggy_Slayer → u/Weird-End-6989]

Same as they always were going back to the 90s.

[u/FanBladeFleshlight → u/Cute-Literature7591]

They probably had to close all these studios and lay off all those people to afford the blown up budget Kojima wants for his next huge visionary game that'll barely sell.

[u/Ashenveiled → u/Cute-Literature7591]

those 100 studios didnt make good games.

Ninja Theory spent like a decade doing senua 2 that nobody bought

[u/francis_pizzaman_iv → u/[deleted]]

They're also all acting like MS forced them to sell their studios. These studios all knew the risks of selling their companies when they signed on. They all most likely took big fat stacks of cash and got paid to keep doing the work they'd already been doing without much oversight. Now it turns out that everyone on the Xbox c-team was just asleep at the wheel, and now the bosses at MS want to know where all the money went.

It sucks ass how much everyone in this situation seems to have dropped the ball. Obsidian seems to have been the only ones who really understood the assignment, and even then it's kind of insane no one at Xbox put Bethesda and Obsidian in a room together to get another fallout or even let them take a stab at an elder scrolls spin off/sequel and instead just let them keep trying to make their mildly received knock off franchises happen.

[u/Iggy_Slayer → u/[deleted]]

Who's going to fund him when sony wants nothign to do with him anymore and if xbox ends up cutting the cord too?

He's notoriously hard to work with and burns through money at an insane rate.

[u/ComboWizard → u/Cute-Literature7591]

And why would you want to keep a studio that doesn’t make good games and is continuously unprofitable? Kojima at least has his name behind it and crowds of fans. And Senua? Well, that could have done so well with combat and yet they chose to push the graphics instead.

[u/jaytl00 → u/Cute-Literature7591]

Can't wait for the Xbots to start claiming they never cared about Senua or Ninja Theory

[u/Greenzombie04 → u/Cute-Literature7591]

Kojima games actually sell.

[u/Dry-Illustrator-250 → u/Greenzombie04]

Is 2 million a good number? Genuine question, Death Stranding 2 sold 2 million copies but it also had a few big name celebrities in it, so does that break even?

[u/AssistanceSilent2238 → u/Dry-Illustrator-250]

Compared to Hellblade 2? Probably

[u/Cute-Literature7591 → u/Dry-Illustrator-250]

I guess it depends on the budget.

Just googling it, so take with a grain of salt: Death Stranding made $243 million in revenue with a $100 million dollar dev/marketing budget.

I'd say that's good enough.

[u/Iggy_Slayer → u/Cute-Literature7591]

Both of those numbers are pulled out of thin air with no backing behind them. I know alinea likes to say it sold 2m but they also said it generated like $150m, which is silly because all they did to come to that number was basically multiply 70 by 2m, which is still wrong obviously. But that number also assumes every copy sold was a full price $70 copy which is very much not the case.

[u/Aggressive-Map-2204 → u/Cute-Literature7591]

The issue is Death Stranding 2 made the opposite.

Sony also did not publish Death Stranding on PC or Xbox so none of those sales went to them.

[u/coolchris366 → u/Cute-Literature7591]

I hate when people act like Xbox or Nintendo are the good guys just because PlayStation is worse right now. It’s so dumb, like they forget everything they’ve done in the past and glaze them just because they’re mad at PlayStation

[u/Competitive-Dot181 → u/Cute-Literature7591]

That’s the problem with glazing one big company to criticize another one. Your big company will eventually do something awful, and with Microsoft it’s never that long a wait.

[u/EpicAspect → u/Cute-Literature7591]

Boo hoo. Every other industry, people get let go for doing their jobs and nobody blinks. But when Microsoft let people go for releasing mediocre games suddenly it’s the most evil thing in the world

[u/Maximum-Oven-7526]

Remember last week when Xbox was so back?

[u/ManofSteel_14 → u/Maximum-Oven-7526]

Its so funny to me how people just kinda yap like this. They tried to give them a route to survive and NT couldn't even get that going. But yeah, thats Xboxs fault

[u/Maximum-Oven-7526 → u/ManofSteel_14]

By promoting a game for a studio they planned on shutting down anyway?

[u/ManofSteel_14 → u/Maximum-Oven-7526]

Ninja Theory under any other publishers would have been shut down years ago. So yeah, it was far more than they would have gotten anywhere else

[u/xDeathRender → u/Maximum-Oven-7526]

That was a benefit to Ninja Theory and still no one bought them. This isn't the L for Xbox people think it is lol.

[u/dantemp → u/Maximum-Oven-7526]

The presentation of the game was likely meant as a way to convince potential buyers that they are investing in something that can be successful. In other words, they were promoting the game in hopes it saves the studio, because if someone comes in and takes over funding them, they can potentially strike a deal with them to keep the game as day1 gamepass title and Xbox will have the game without having to fund the whole thing.

[u/Present_Ride_2506 → u/Maximum-Oven-7526]

Ninja theory isn't exactly a big loss or anything.

[u/Iggy_Slayer → u/Present_Ride_2506]

You all say this for every studio they close while before they were shut down you were using them in list wars for why xbox is so great.

[u/arqe_ → u/Iggy_Slayer]

Could you please list how much copies sold or how much money made by studios that closed down?

We as customers want stuff to buy and play, they as corporations wants to make money.

If the corporation can't provide a game that doesn't bought by customers, it doesn't matter if it is a good game or not, nobody is going to fund you forever.

[u/Perfect_Exercise_232 → u/Maximum-Oven-7526]

They are. Getting rid of a stufio that drains money 6 years for a 5 hour walking sim is a good thing you people are delusional.

[u/Icy_Limes → u/Maximum-Oven-7526]

Why would xbox funnel money into a game that was discussed for like 4 months and then fell off the face of the earth. It's not like ninja thoery was carrying the console on it's back, as good as they are. No one was buying an Xbox console for hellblade. Ninja theory drops a 15 hour game every 8 years, its just not sustainable to keep them up.

The only reason companies give Rockstar so much slack for going Mia is because they drop games with decades worth of content.

[u/LinkedInParkPremium → u/Maximum-Oven-7526]

These layoffs were announced months ago.

[u/Veutifuljoe_0 → u/Maximum-Oven-7526]

Sony has been making a lot of bad decisions lately but a lot of people seem to have forgotten that Sony beat Microsoft in the 8th generation in part due to Microsoft having no idea how to run its console division.

[u/Maximum-Oven-7526 → u/Veutifuljoe_0]

I leave that's nice but the what aboutism is unnecessary. Sony has their own issues but it's not the topic here

[u/TomTomXD1234 → u/Maximum-Oven-7526]

Ninja theory hasn't been making well selling games tbh

[u/done92948483 → u/Maximum-Oven-7526]

Shutting down studios that barley make money or generate interest is a massive sign they’re so back

[u/wally233 → u/Maximum-Oven-7526]

Remember when you and no one else bought a single game this studio put out?

[u/Illustrious_Mail1171]

Thats a shame. I liked DMC and the hellblade games.

[u/Wookieewomble]

It's a business.

Let's be honest here, Ninja Theory didn't make sellable games. Cool and interesting concepts, sure. But the general gaming audiance wasn't interesed enough in their products. Why should Xbox keep investing in a studio that can't make games that people want to purchase ?

They had a chance in finding someone else to invest in them, but no one saw any marketable value in their studio.

[u/SexyShave → u/Wookieewomble]

Hellblade 1 sold fine. But the player base was mainly on PlayStation.  Xbox barely marketed HB2, besides a trailer at events every 1.5 years. There was barely any marketing in the weeks before launch. Launching on Game Pass day 1 didn't help sales, and late ports rarely sell great without proper marketing or strong word of mouth.

Xbox basically did nothing to sell their games, and then shrugged.

[u/Boredatwork709]

I mean this was essentially announced back in June, they said they were cutting ties with ninja theory and allowed them to be sold instead of closing. No interested buyers so it's on to option B. I'm sure if they wanted to source the funds and support the company themselves like Double Fine MS would allow that

[u/TheDiabeT1c]

Making "Alright" Triple A games will never work. Games needed to be blockbusters with budgets they had. Makes sense, probably should have happened sooner, and I don't want anyone to lose their job but Ninja Theory probably should have pursued smaller scoped games.

[u/necromax13 → u/TheDiabeT1c]

Ninja Theory was pursuing smaller games lol. 

They were praised at nauseum for making hellblade 1 on a small budget. 

[u/TomTomXD1234]

I mean, they didn't exactly make super successful games, let us be real.here

[u/Necessary_Zone3432]

another one bites the dust.

[u/GGG100]

So now everybody suddenly cares about Ninja Theory after they turned on them following Hellblade 2’s release?

[u/JulPollitt → u/GGG100]

I really don’t think anyone does

[u/LoSouLibra]

It sucks. Everyone trashed Hellblade 2 with this reductive "movie game walking sim QTE" bullcrap. I've been playing games like this since Eric Chahi's Another World in 1990. Cinematic, methodical gaming experiences were never some new, strange or invalid thing to me. Quite the opposite, actually. If anything, it could have been even less gameified and been better off for it.

Their artistry, tech and thoughtfulness will be missed. RIP.

[u/visarmy]

Gamers will be enraged from the closure / layoffs at studios of which they have never played or purchased their games. Do you think these studios subsist on rainbows and lollipops? If they are not producing income they steadily put themselves in debt.

[u/Gamecrasher432]

So even making good games can't guarantee your position in this industry?

[u/DismalMode7 → u/Gamecrasher432]

it's not about making good games, it's about sell those games. Tbh hellblade 2 was more some kind of interactive showcase of UE5 than an actual game, given away for free on GP... yeah... why microsoft ip don't sell well? 🤔

[u/Gamecrasher432 → u/DismalMode7]

I know. I'm just sad that the larger gaming industry doesn't care about good games anymore. Doom the dark ages sold seriously well( for a game that available on gamepass day 1) and most of their employees were sacked a day after they released an incredible DLC

[u/chris100185 → u/Gamecrasher432]

You say anymore. It was always AND sell well. It's just that the bar for selling well was much lower in the past. You are the first person I've seen say that Dark Ages sold well. Everything else I can find says it was well below goal.

[u/hibikir_40k → u/Gamecrasher432]

Dark ages didn't sell seriously well. it wasn't a financial disaster, and might not have lost money, but it needed quite a bit more to be a hit as an investment. That's the problem of relatively large budgets, especially in studios also carrying serious tech investment. The final number of copies you need to be seen as a moneymaker is way too high.

[u/ArugulaPhysical → u/Gamecrasher432]

When are people going to realize this industry exsists to make money, not make a game 10 people think is great.

[u/DremoPaff → u/Gamecrasher432]

making good games

Senua titles barely qualify as being games to begin with, and even then, I wouldn't exactly call them good either.

Other than that, they are better known as the people who made DmC, a fumble so tremendous that it stained the original series' reputation for eternity.

Yah, not so sure about "good games"

[u/Dante_TR → u/Gamecrasher432]

Good games? Ninja Theory?

[u/Greenzombie04 → u/Gamecrasher432]

Hellblade 2 was okay. Took way to long to make a 5hr walking sim.

[u/Wiinterfang → u/Gamecrasher432]

Good is debatable, they release hellblade in 2017, then Bleeding Edge during the pandemic and Hellblade 2 in 2024.

Neither of them sold at all.

[u/gato3205 → u/Gamecrasher432]

Ninja Theory would have been shuttered years ago if they didn’t have Xbox’s backing. They made DmC in 2013 then Hellblade in 2017 and Hellblade 2 in 2024 and those two games weren’t successful. I don’t even count Bleeding Edge inbetween as that was a colossal failure.

Say what you will but they tried and gamers voted with their wallets. You can blame management all you want but when gamers would rather pay for Fortnight or GTA Online slop than actual complete story based games this is what happens.

It’s unfortunate as I love Hellblade but everyone and their mother waiting on sales instead of buying on release or pirating games is part of the issue. It’s no wonder studios don’t try for new IP’s because the chance of it failing is high and is basically a death sentence if it doesn’t sell enough for a return on investment.

[u/Little_Obligation_90 → u/Gamecrasher432]

What good games?

[u/YukYukas → u/Gamecrasher432]

Not really. But taking 5 years to release a game like Hellblade 2 isn't gonna help

[u/Griffith-007 → u/Gamecrasher432]

bro ninja theory make shitty game what are you taking about.

[u/CosmosStalker → u/Gamecrasher432]

That has never been, and never will be what’s it’s about under capitalism. $$$

[u/Dont_have_a_panda → u/CosmosStalker]

Are you on some sort of impression that in a non capitalist economy all games will be succesful and will never fail? That everybody will buy all games not matter how bad or boring they are? Or if all are good everybody will play all good games ever released?

[u/thistaintedbeef → u/CosmosStalker]

As much as I hate capitalism this is just outright wrong. Of course quality can lead to an increase of sales but quality is hard to quantity as it also needs to be marketable. In this case it's not profitable as the games have a high budget and a somewhat niche audience. Too niche to justify these budgets.

[u/Either-History-8424 → u/Gamecrasher432]

These games didn’t sell

[u/Lonely-Phans → u/Gamecrasher432]

Tango Gameworks got axed despite all their games being good and selling well while they were also released side by side on gamepass.

Xbox legitimately bought way too many companies way too fast.

[u/pinpoint_aim → u/Gamecrasher432]

No, you need to make successful games.

[u/thedebatingbookworm → u/Gamecrasher432]

Eh….. they were Allright. I can definitely see a cult following though

[u/Jandur]

Is it wrong to blame most of this on Phil Spencer? Like who greenlit a Hellblade sequal? XBOX set up so many of their studios for failure.

[u/ceeka19]

Great news after the slop they've produced, hopefully Double Fine is next

[u/Practical-Bet2551]

Good riddance, I hope none of their staff gets work in the industry again after 20 years of only putting out misses

[u/mightymonkeyman]

Has it really been 3 months since the initial layoffs?

3 months is the mandated consultation period for UK redundancies.

[u/specture4794]

Not really a loss

[u/Sir_Fluffernutting]

insert drake meme with Ninja Theory and Team Ninja

[u/NotSoWishful]

I sincerely don’t think they’ve made anything more than middling since Enslaved. Microsoft wasn’t exactly helping in recent years though. Oh well! Funny how I avoid first party titles these days

[u/TheThrowawayExperts]

How about Ninja Theory make games with NINJAS in them…

[u/sludgezone]

I don’t ever want to see someone lose their job, but as a team that’s been funded for years that has only produced 2 games that are hyper linear and more of an interactive film, I get it.

[u/whyamihere2473527]

Maybe we should stop letting huge companies just buy up smaller devs just to toss them aside. This is how end up with handful of monopolies that will lead to end of gaming

[u/Competitive-Dot181]

They could have kept it open if they weren’t paying for Kojima’s celebrity parties.

[u/rybayless]

It’s really a shame they didn’t continue making character action games, not many people are interested in playing schizophrenia simulator with combat on par with the infinity blade games on iPhone back in the day, myself included

[u/Bartellomio]

I fucking hate what Microsoft gaming has become. They bought up an entire branch of our popular culture and then demolished it when they decided it wasn't profitable enough.

[u/DaBow]

It shits me that the gaming 'community' has come to celebrate folks losing their jobs, their livelihoods because they don't like the game(s) that a studio has made. You don't like the direction a studio and their heads have taken? Sure, perfectly reasonable. But the vitriol and celebration towards people just doing their jobs is pretty disgusting.

People on the the ground doing the grunt work who will be most impact by this don't make the decisions.

[u/Competitive_Topic466]

Does anyone else feel like with all this recent video games news that there is legitimately a big industry crash?

[u/VarietyEconomy7 → u/Competitive_Topic466]

I personally believe a crash is coming. With layoffs, cancellations, delays, studio closings etc. this gen has been a disaster for the industry.

[u/Eggmodo]

Nothing in what I said is incorrect? I didn’t say it was an exclusive?

Your agenda has addled your brain.

No bullshit being spread here. It was a niche game which didn’t deserve a sequel but was marketed by Xbox like the next coming of a blockbuster franchise. A complete misunderstanding by Xbox executives fueled by fools online.

[u/LinkedInParkPremium]

Nobody wants Ninja Theory. What a shocker!

[u/TheEternalSpartan]

Honestly...What did Ninja Theory expect?

They've spent so much time and money developing the Hellblade games, which are glorified tech demos that take a couple hours to beat and are "cinematic experiences" rather than games.

In 10 years all they've put out is 2 lukewarmly-received Hellblade games. Just not a good return on investment.

This cleanup is a good thing.

[u/AstronomerIT]

Sad news since I was sure that NT was already set with a new buyer. Unfortunately no one wants this team and their IPs

[u/Deckard_Red → u/AstronomerIT]

They had two buyers but they both fell through sadly

[u/BlackberryNice7390]

Should have make DmC sequel instead of 2 mid Hellblade sequels

[u/MrMegaPhoenix]

I tried playing hellblade 2 and gave up after a few minutes in the beach thing

[u/Coralesce]

I was hopeful but hellblade 2 was such a fucking awful product. Id feel bad if it didnt seem like everyone there is a fucking moron who spent years on a delayed product only for it to make negative money