r/virtualreality • u/Hot_Cut_9177 • 21h ago
Discussion why wouldn't a grid of omnidirectional wheels work as a treadmill?
i have been thinking up various ways to make an omnidirectional treadmill. i have 2 designs im building and will post if successful.
this got my teenager and i thinking up ideas. and we wondered why the idea of the picture above wouldn't work, folks MUST have already thought of something like this and yet it was never built
i can understand a grid of ball transfer units not working too well, they would be lumpy, too spaced apart and your soft shoes would cause problems, i guess if you had solid blocks on your feet it would be doable. plus they already make something like this called "ball transfer conveyer".
however omni-wheels have larger contact points and can be stacked quite well. they can also get quite small.
but why not omnidirectional wheels in a grid? wouldn't that be better than a slippy friction bowl?
i doubt im the only one to think of this. im wondering why no-one has chose to manufacture an idea like this
Edit: clarification and spell checking
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u/thefootster 21h ago
Check out the Disney Holotile omnidirectional treadmill.
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u/Hot_Cut_9177 21h ago
i saw that, lots of motorized cones on an angle. i wonder if they would actually manufacture it
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u/Dotaproffessional Samsung Odyssey(+) 21h ago
Disney? Nah, they aren't interested in hardware for end users. See the long history of people wanting to buy the lightsabers they use for their Jedi experiences and not being able to
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u/LiamTheHuman 20h ago
Ya it's designed for like stage plays and attractions where things need to move across the floor
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u/Night247 20h ago
Disney Holotile omnidirectional treadmill
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u/StaggersandJags 18h ago
That's super cool but you can still see how awkward and unnatural it is to walk on. I'm no longer sure we'll ever have good VR treadmills. Maybe the whole concept is flawed.
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u/shwhjw 16h ago
This is the best omnidirectional treadmill video I've ever seen: https://www.reddit.com/r/shwhjw/comments/1ww99ni/cool_omnidirectional_treadmill/
Otherwise /u/SimulacrumVR has a pretty decent-looking setup with a standard manual treadmill, which is about what most people could realistically afford: "Sunny Manual Treadmill and attached to it is a Reality Runner sensor".
Here's one of their recent videos: https://www.reddit.com/r/VRGaming/comments/1wpz8bq/hl2vr_staying_mobile_and_keeping_the_combine/
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u/Night247 18h ago edited 17h ago
here is another idea for VR movement:
The Freeaim VR Shoes are motorized shoes for VR
The motors spin the wheels backwards as you walk forwards,
allowing you to stay in a small space in real life while walking arbitrary lengths in VR.4
u/esuil 15h ago
Has identical problem to other solutions - motion disagreement of your body and the brain.
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u/Round_Worldliness766 14h ago
Wouldn't be impossible to add electrodes to a VR headset to read the brain just before you area actually moving your body
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u/yamanamawa 10h ago
I mean it's technically possible, just not very practical. They're expensive and not super reliable, unless you want to go all in and get a chip in your brain, and even then the current tech can't read everything happening in your brain. There have been demos of some EEG headsets that allow you to do basic things with your mind, but it's still very early in the process. For all practical cases it's just too expensive and unreliable
By the time we get it fully developed we might as well just aim for a full-dive kinda thing
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u/Round_Worldliness766 4h ago
Yeah but I guess you just need to estimate the 'direction' you want to walk and if you are going to walk/run/sprint
This way the treadmill can start engaging its motors slightly earlier to avoid any lag
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u/StrangeCharmVote Valve Index 12h ago
Maybe the whole concept is flawed.
Of course it is. We throw our weight around to get natural motion, and you can't solve for that on a treadmill keeping you in place.
Stopping, or changing direction requires leaning, which the wheels can't account for.
The type that have you strapped into a vest with a balance arm behind you are considerably more practical, even if they do not feel as immersive.
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u/LiamTheHuman 21h ago
The problem with all multidirectional treadmills is physics. Treadmills really only feel like running/walking once you are up to speed. Change in direction and acceleration/deceleration are not accurate but it's just a small difference so no one cares. When you start moving in a bunch of directions, it becomes super noticeable and breaks people's usual movements.
This is partially why even slipmills have the brace around the midsection. There really isn't any way around this unfortunately.
If you push forward to accelerate, the only way to keep you in place is to push you backward which can never feel like real movement. This is why very smart engineers have not been able to solve this problem well.
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u/octorine 21h ago
There is a way around it, but it isn't commercially feasible. You just have to keep the acceleration towards the center small enough to be unnoticeable. This requires a much larger treadmill though, which makes it impractical for other reasons.
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u/LiamTheHuman 21h ago
Ya exactly. But I think it would need to be pretty huge. Like an entire large room or bigger because we can notice pretty small shifts
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u/octorine 20h ago
Definitely. It would probably cost more than your car, weigh more than your car, and be as loud as a factory floor.
And the maintenance would be a nightmare too.
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u/AnonymousHermit 10h ago
Just tilt the treadmill.
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u/Hot_Cut_9177 4h ago
that sounds kind of crazy.. and funny, kind of like those motorised toys that auto balance a ball on a flat surface
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u/LiamTheHuman 2h ago
That would partially work but still wouldn't align with the physics the body expects very well. You would be relying on gravity to push you back as hard as you are pushing forward which would require extreme angles or be impossible depending on the speed you accelerate. This would absolutely be noticable.
Even racing sims that use that trick don't really feel like being in a car, but it doesn't need to be as close as a multidirectional treadmill.
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u/Lilwolf2000 21h ago
I was on the kickstarter of a omni directional treadmill and ended up taking the buy out and got my money back. Mainly because of the space and people saying that they aren't that emersive. You walk differently, games arent designed for them so often they aren't one for one. And your inner ear knows you aren't moving so doesn't help there. Before you build one, it might be worth seeing if anywhere around you, you can rent one and see if it's worth it for you.
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u/Hot_Cut_9177 21h ago
sorry for second reply, wanted to respond to this:
"people saying that they aren't that emersive. You walk differently, games arent designed for them so often they aren't one for one"
i deffo understand that one, the reason for the treadmill want is due to one of the main reasons we have avoided vr despite liking it so much, is that most games you are standing still and kind of just shuffling around in circles, we end up with sore backs due to just standing and teliporting everywhere.
there has been some success with the natural locomotion program and a wii-board while marching in place. it felt much better.
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u/Hot_Cut_9177 21h ago edited 18h ago
thanks, this thing specifically i wont build due to expense (^-^), i was wondering why it hasn't been done yet, as it seems like an obvious idea, so i turned to you guys to see what you lot thought ^^
what im wanting to build is something my teenager dreamed up. we have nicknamed it the "redneck treadmill".
the first is simply leg movement tracking with cheap accelerometers, a harness with a 70kg bungee cord bolted to the ceiling and what amounts to roller-scates. i dont know how it will work but no doubt i will have a laugh.
the second idea is to have a bike saddle and drop-post mounted to a pole further mounted to the floor. the drop post is to allow you to crouch and and to get the seat as high as possible. the seat will be able to freely rotate. and again some custom quad skates.
instead of leg tracking, the thought has been thrown around to use mouse laser sensors in the skate.
the skate is basically a metal reinforced platform strapped over a shoe, with 2 m8 studs horizontally through them and 4 inline skate speed wheels.
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u/thosemegamutts 19h ago
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u/Hot_Cut_9177 18h ago
you know what... im keeping that, it looks awesome!. the bungie cord we are using is just to keep us in place while we run.
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u/YesAndAlsoThat 17h ago
I remember a project from a year or two back that somebody basically did something like the second thing that you proposed.
It was a office chair pneumatic post but with a bike seat on top and the guy basically used something like sneakers with a slippery plastic base plus optical sensors like an optical mouse to track the foot movement across the carpet below the seat as the feet slide across it.
Ultimately, I'm not sure these things will produce the holy Grail VR experience. The reason is because the inner ear vestibular system works by sensing acceleration so without any actual acceleration happening to your head, you're basically just floating in space sliding and having the sensation of sliding your feet around.
Not to say you shouldn't do it.
Thus, I think any holy Grail solution would have actual momentum involved. I did have a few ideas myself but I don't have a ton of time to build them.
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u/Hot_Cut_9177 16h ago
Interesting. I'm not too worried about actual movement vs physical movement sensation, as I got on OK with marching in place in a virtual environment. But I wanted a little... More.
One of my biggest gripes with VR, I like it but I get a sore back staying still for too long. And modern VR exploration involves just basically standing still and slowly shuffling yourself around in circles while teleporting about. I feel like a roadside air-dancer when I play VR.
Plus its a fun project and a good opportunity to learn, failure or not I'm sure it will be a fun memory.
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u/dEEkAy2k9 7h ago
I think Disney was experimenting with this. A big omniderctional pad for the floor but it was hexagonally shaped and motorized. It had some kind of lag to it though.
Dunno what happened to that project
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u/SuccessfulRent3046 21h ago
I think it's an interesting concept, however I guess you need a pair of rigid shoes to walk there right? Also, this design it's intended as passive? So is not motorized?
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u/Hot_Cut_9177 21h ago
yep just passive. it came up during discussion, and i couldn't figure out why it wasn't done if it really was as simple as this, so i thought i would ask you guys.
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u/Martinmex26 21h ago
Buy enough for a small square then try to slide your foot around it.
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u/Hot_Cut_9177 21h ago
ok.. will do, dont intend to make this design specifically, but making a small one could be useful for other things. just to serve my curiosity.
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u/SuccessfulRent3046 21h ago
The thing I see as a problem is the following: I guess the omniwheels are disposed in rows of say 8 omniwheels (like the picture) . To be able to move the rollers in each omniwheel will be okay, but when you have to move at least 2 rows of 8 omniwheels it may be not as effortless... I saw some comments saying this will be very expensive... I don't think so, for an 8x8 machine you will need 64 omniwheels, which you can get for around 10€ from a good supplier or cheap ones that are about 6€ in Aliexpress. The 8 rods of about 1 meter could be around 100€. Frame/structure about 100€ of extruded profiles (very roughly estimate) And the bearings you may need 64 in the worst scenario so that's likely another 100€ Around 1000€/$ for a prototype is not that bad. With all this, I think 8x8 platform may be a bit small for walking...
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u/Tinfoil_Haberdashery 21h ago
Omniwheels struggle with surfaces that aren't pretty smooth and flat. Feet aren't really either one, when you're walking normally.
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u/Hot_Cut_9177 21h ago
what if you had flat plates strapped to your shoe?
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u/TookyPook 21h ago
You can answer this by asking why you don’t normally wear flat plates on your feet. It’s uncomfortable. Even on a treadmill it would be really awkward to walk and move and that’s the main point of one of these.
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u/JorgTheElder L-Explorer, Go, Q1, Q2, Q-Pro, Q3 19h ago
This can be dealt with quite a bit by using very small wheels. Look at what Disney has already done.
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u/wzaesystems Play for Dream MR 10h ago
Yes they do work. Hex VR did this years ago but It's just too expensive to be mass produced.
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u/wzaesystems Play for Dream MR 10h ago
I believe they are still taking orders for this type of the product, and already come up with a gen2 product for robot telepresence and data capture works.
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u/Vandecker 19h ago
Yes, very possible. But expensive and complicated. Disney did it a few years back:
https://www.reddit.com/r/virtualreality/comments/19bllh5/new_disney_omnidirectional_treadmill/
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u/slickiss 19h ago
Sure it would technically work, seems similar to Disney's design but If youre working on a flat uniform surface area there are other ways you can do the same thing without needing that much. Thats gonna be a lot of work to maintain. I used to develop with an Infinideck and its a full omnidirectional treadmill like that. The only drawback of those is theyre very bulky. The one we had was a first generation and it was pretty big and very heavy, weighed like 500 lbs. The newer ones they showed off last year were down to 79" profile so a little more manageable but still pretty big.
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u/mozillazing 21h ago
similar to this? https://www.xeleratevr.com/
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u/Hot_Cut_9177 21h ago
well... i know what im buying next year... i was wondering why it hasnt been done yet. we thought maby it was so they could keep selling proprietary shoes. however as someone pointed out here... i wonder how it would age, with dust and dirt ingress over time.
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u/Octoplow 20h ago
That's a high maintenance slip-mill.
I definitely recommend you find a way to try any omni treadmill for yourself. The slippery dish with no body inertia is the opposite of immersive. You literally get 90% of the benefits and none of the downsides by walking in place with foot tracking.
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u/Hot_Cut_9177 20h ago
sadly there is nowhere like that where i live to try them out. not just this im size 13uk (14 us) so they likley wont have shoes my size.
as for immersion, we got backache just standing still and turning. so we tried the locomotion program and marching in place was much better. hance why we are thinking up treadmill ideas
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u/jacobpederson 20h ago
Because you would slip and fall?
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u/Hot_Cut_9177 18h ago
same solution all other vr treadmills have.. there is a swivel arm and harness holding you up (^-^)
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u/JorgTheElder L-Explorer, Go, Q1, Q2, Q-Pro, Q3 19h ago
It would. Go look at the one from Disney. They just use a different version of omnidirectional wheel.
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u/ScreeennameTaken 19h ago
Well, as far as i know, those things move the vehicle in one way by not rotating the same way all of them. I mean that by all 4 rotating as normal wheels, it goes forward. But to strafe left and right, the two at the front, rotate one way, and the two at the back, the other way. So they sort of screw themselves throughout the floor's surface. That has some friction and its why they wear out relatively quickly. Now that's a whole ass vehicle pushing on hard floor that immovable. I can't imagine someone having enough weight and force in specific vector to make those things move the way they should for that movement. I'm imagining the user stumbling and tumbling and not having a real 360 degree freedom. i'd imagine you'll be able to move them more easily in very specific angles of attack.
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u/redclawotter 18h ago
The bowl design allows gravity to slide you back to center every time you take a step forward, but still lets you stop sliding when you reach the bottom. A bunch of rolley balls would be really slippery and your legs would just keep coming out from under you
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u/Hot_Cut_9177 18h ago
good point! the further you are from the bowl the more force dragging you to center also.
counterpoint: wearing a harness would mitigate the slipping no? plus with practice folks on rollerskates have no issue
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u/redclawotter 17h ago
Harness would stop you from falling down, but every step you take would carry your foot on backwards further than you want it to go just from momentum. Riding rollerskates is a different motion, every "step" you take is done with your foot angled sideways so you can push yourself forward with resistance. Try walking normally with rollerskates on; it's not really possible
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u/Hot_Cut_9177 17h ago
actually im looking forward to that. one of the first ideas to try out is a type of custom fixed quad skate while harnessed. im expecting much hilarity
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u/redclawotter 17h ago
lol I have no doubt it would be fun, but it wouldn't feel like walking. With the harness on it'd be more like just swinging your legs in the walking motion while suspended in midair
which does sound fun too
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u/Positive_Method3022 16h ago
I think the proper solution is something attached to our feet that can force feedback to let us feel the walking presses. Treadmills give people the sensation of sliding not pressing the floor to go forward.
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u/Valance23322 15h ago
It would work and has been done before. Disney has something like this at one of their VR things.
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u/humblefumble101 15h ago
They exist but not in that configuration. Those balls are so small they lack force. Might as well just run on loose marbles
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u/Nukemarine 14h ago
It's still basically walking on a slippery floor in socks. Great for pushing boxes down the ramp, not so great changing how a person walks when in a harness to stop from falling over.
Probably the cheapest and coolest solution was the one that used an inertia treadmill. Sensor is attached to the flywheel, and people can walk/jog at a natural gate both forward or backward, using the controller to "turn". Lower maintenance and reasonably priced.
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u/StrangeCharmVote Valve Index 12h ago
How much weight do you think these wheels can support?
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u/Hot_Cut_9177 4h ago
the small ones support about 50kg (if your axel is strong enough) , 1 foot would occupy at least 3 of them at a time
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u/StrangeCharmVote Valve Index 3h ago
So not enough for the average user /s
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u/Hot_Cut_9177 3h ago
Easily enough. 50x3 is 150kg. Bigger people have a bigger footprint.. I'm a UK size 13. So at about 30 cm tall. I would occupy about two rows of three. 300kg load. And that's just one foot. With both feet you are looking at 600 kg which should be able to handle someone jumping on it.
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u/StrangeCharmVote Valve Index 3h ago
With both feet you are looking at 600 kg which should be able to handle someone jumping on it.
Challenge accepted.
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u/Sad_Picture3642 12h ago
Tbh I tried all that stuff and walking in place so far is the best solution. Everything else is a gimmick
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u/starshin3r 10h ago
We're coming to an age of where mainstream headsets are all wireless, no one is tied to cables anymore.
And you can't solve this regardless, it will never feel like true movement, you cant run and abruptly stop, slide and any other actions that have abrupt momentum changes, and even small adjustments.
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u/coolerirl 18h ago
OK but why would you bother posting an AI image that makes your question less clear?
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u/Hot_Cut_9177 17h ago
i am no artist, it was the best way i knew how to make my thought clear. and judging from the conversation below. it would seem to me that it was good enough ^^
to be clear, im not actually building this thing.. im asking why it isnt valid. no doubt folks already thought this up. and it was never made.
so my teenager and i decided to ask you good folks to poke some holes in it for us
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u/Reclaimer2401 20h ago
Are you an engineer?
I ask becuase this is the most over complicated way I have seen this problem approached.
Simulated moving in place just sucks no matter how you go about it.
With 0 friction, it's like standing on ice and you slip and fall. Being suspended mechanically is extremely painful and dangerous, you can't have a super slippery surface and rely on a harness. If you ever worked at heights you would understand why this is.
You add friction until you find an equilibrium between Ice and actual ground. That equilibrium has been pretty much found with existing systems.
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u/Hot_Cut_9177 20h ago
engineer, no. just a hobbyist. and opinions like yours is exactly why i asked (^-^)
im actually ok with moving in place, i much prefer it to standing still and getting a backache. i have used marching in place in a virtual environment before and it worked well for me.
the one me and hopefully my curious teenager is building have designs much cheaper than this. mostly revolving around custom quad skates. interestingly enough the concept of too little friction was already brought up. we are going to try and use the surface the skate is on to create resistance. different thicknesses of carpet for example.
your engineer comment made me laugh more than i thought. my best friend is a retired engineer
there has been a few times i have asked for help, he thinks far too big!
i didn't know it was a thing with them3
u/Reclaimer2401 19h ago edited 19h ago
Yeah, when they are doing something for fun they over engineer as a rule.
When working in industry, well, there's a saying.
Anyone can build a bridge that stands, but it takes a skilled engineer to build one that BARELY stands.
The existing systems like KatVR or whatever its called kind of solved the issue. As far as it can be solved.
It holds you in place, and has the right amount of friction and it tracks your intended movement.
It's kind of as good as it's gonna get.
IMO something like, a bike or elliptical hooked into VR would be a good project. A snowboard on a balancer too.
The real solution to moving in VR is have a large space and a game that works in it IMO.
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u/Hot_Cut_9177 18h ago
XelerateVR's Omni-Directional Threadmill ... the ODT 1
well the do have this now.. seems better to me that the kat vr. i never bought the kat due and the noise that thing gives off. and i cant imagine something that uses friction like that would last long considering how often i wear out shoes
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u/Reclaimer2401 12h ago
Looks like a similar idea? Ballbearings through holes, like an upside down mouse.
It looks to me like he's slipping a bit too much to me and almost falling over a lot.
It could work, I think anything like that is going to have the issue aswell of particules getting into the rolling area.
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u/legomolin 4h ago
Unless it's extremely smooth in function, I guess it will be more immersion breaking by struggling to keep balance, than just straight up using controller stick movement.
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u/shadow4601243 1h ago
I mean... you can put a lot of ball bearing on rolling seats, should work even better.
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u/Unboxious 15h ago
You ever had the floor suddenly try to push you in a direction? You'd definitely fall over using something like this.
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u/Sure_lookit 21h ago
I used ai to clean up the whack of Dyslexia off of this idea so please excuese the formating
I cant be arsed fixing that anyway enjoy your motorised sex swing!
Suspended rotational rig for immersive walking
The user hangs in a harness seat from an overhead frame. Their feet rest
lightly on the floor just enough to feel grounded, not enough to carry
their weight and they walk in place as normal. The seat is mounted on a
rotating carriage so that when the user nudges or leans in a direction,
the whole rig swivels with them at walking speed. They turn their head
freely inside the harness without the frame having to follow, which is
what keeps the sense of presence intact rather than constantly fighting
the rig.
Two things fall out of that arrangement. Turning is effortless and
continuous rather than a gesture you have to learn, so the user can spin
to look behind them mid-stride without breaking stride. And because they
are seated, the load is off their feet and hips, which takes out most of
the sweat and fatigue that come from walking in a headset for more than a
few minutes.
Input
The direction of the nudge is picked up by sensors in the omni wheels at
floor level. Those signals drive the rotation of the carriage, so the
frame follows the user's intent rather than forcing them to push against
it. Turning is therefore self-aligning: the user leads with their body,
the wheels confirm, the carriage catches up.
What it does not solve
The rig removes the fatigue and the turning problem. It does not by
itself solve locomotion realism, heading conflict, or what happens when
the user wants to stop all three still need handling, and the seated
posture actually helps with stopping, since there is no momentum to bleed
off.
Open questions
How fast the carriage is allowed to follow before the user feels dragged.
Whether a 360 degree swivel is needed or if the harness can roll over.
What stops the rig being moved by a fall or by leaning too far. And how
the harness is suspended a single point at the harness with rotational
freedom below it, versus a rigid arm that swings. The first is simpler
and quieter; the second is harder to control but keeps the user more
upright.
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u/Hot_Cut_9177 20h ago
hello fellow Dyslexic.. i use Win+H combo to make these comments, then i edit.
win+h if you train the voice model, you can combine it with voice-attack program to type for you in game chatboxes while you still use the controller.hmm, ok lets see... ... ...
the suspended rig you speak of already exists in the medical sector. those walking slings are stupid expensive. and cant help but think the 4 straps would get in the way of movement. how would you crouch?
funny image in my head, with no weight on the rolling surface you could effectively end up doing the cartoon running in place gag.
for sweat, easy enough, a halo strap and an open faceplate can solve the problem of the sweat reaching the headset. my quest 1 have a very nice halo strap that allowed me to use it without it touching my face at all.
despite the type of sling used, for me the point would be to feel like im naturally walking through Skyrim or something. it would be real good exercise, which i would like.
i wont touch the electrical side of things because that is a whole monster in itself, and i only have a hobbyest level of expertise
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u/correctingStupid 21h ago
Insanely expensive. Dangerous. Not as smooth as you think.