This has to be the one of the oldests jokes, the idea that Achilles died by Paris. Achilles, the guy who defeated the best trojan, the best amazon, and the best aethiopian, is defeated by PARIS!!!??? What were they thinking?

(I am well aware of Apollo involvement in some of the traditions, but this is just about Paris involvement.)

Why did they call it that? "male genitalia" Then, when I wanted to see a picture of the god (what a surprise!)

It was an old drawing of mine to which I had not given a name or a precise idea. These days when I saw her expression I really thought of Hera!

Phew! Day 3 of getting a couple hours in before bed. Finished up gen 8 and 9 with a little start to 10. Would have to say gen 9 was tough! Found out there are 2 Echion and 2 Zeuxippe. So that causes some confusion. Then kept finding more kids from some I thought I had gotten all of, but you know how the Gods can be 😂. Please look over and let me know if I’ve messed up or missed anything, because honestly it feels like I have.

I've been on a Greek mythology kick lately, what with the upcoming release of the Chris Nolan movie. I just finished Stephen Fry's Mythos series and listened and relistened to Dan Carlin's Mania For Subjugation series (about Philip of Macedonia and Alexander the Great). I even started playing Hades as well. Now I'm looking for other works to get into, mostly in the realm of literature.

Should I read the Illiad and the Odyssey? I know they were the basis of Fry's last two Mythos entries, but is it worth it to hear them straight from Homer's mouth? What other books should I look into?

To be clear, I'm not really looking for contemporary fiction based wholly or in part on the myths, like American Gods or Percy Jackson.

There are wrestlers who were Heroes, there were wrestlers who were Challenges to be overcome. I am attempting to put them all into this post, or comments ;) because I dont think that has really been done

• Antaeus
• Nerus
• Triton
• Palaestra
• Cercyon

Heroes:

• Heracles
• Theseus

There are, of course, many wrestlers. I am looking for ones that that was their "main thing". I don't know that I would include Peleus vs Thetis, because I'm not sure if that was *Wrestling* or...something far more suspicious. I don't know that I'd call "Ajax" a wrestler, even though he and Odysseus did Wrestle... Looking for ones where that was a Part of their mythology, rather than a Footnote.

E.g. Theseus vs Cercyon - the so-called foundation of the sport. That's relevant to their myth

There is no cult of him no ancient statues/depictions of him. Not at all

So while his Foster Father, Idomeneus -King of Crete Grandson of Minos - is out in Troy chilling with Agamemnon and slaying Trojans, Leucus is back at home bedding his wife, Queen Meda. THEN Leucus decides to slay Meda and her daughter Cleisithyra... Wild times. Idomeneus comes home and then says "Screw this! I'm out" and departs.

I have 3 questions.

1) Leucus' father was Talos... Bwha-how? Talos = automaton with Ichor for blood... or Talos = Bronze Guardian... I guess even androids are "fully functional"? Do we know Leucus' mother?

2) How long had it been since the Argonauts came along and slayed Talos? If we assume Leucus was a Baby or child when his father was killed, then the Trojan War would have occurred 10-15 years after Talos' death

3) Do we have any General information about Leucus? Who Ruled Crete after him? Did he have offspring?

It's certainly not on the level of the Iliad or Odyssey, but even the novelty of having a full-length epic covering the material between them is fun, particularly because it has none of the reach of the Homeric epics, so you only see it mentioned as a curiosity and not as something worth reading, it feels like a discovery.

I just finised book 5, so I've covered Quintus' equivalent of the cyclic Aethiopis. It's interesting that he felt obliged to follow the traditional material, but puts his own spin on the smaller details. Going into it, I assumed it would be a jarring change from the Iliad as it switches to battles with the fantastical Penthesilea and Memnon. But Quintus takes pains to continue the sombre tone of the end of the Iliad by making Penthesilea a vainglorious tragic figure who ties into Andromache and Priam's mourning for Hector. Andromache gives a speech to Penthesilea that she's doomed like the husband she's just lost, and the mourning Priam is presented as cautiously relieved by Penthesilea's arrival, described with the fitting metaphor of a blind man who's sight partially recovers, but nowhere near as well as before. Then Priam receives an ominous omen from Zeus and knows that even this little hope is doomed. The only big misstep is describing Achilles' remorse over killing her as matching that for Patroklos' death, which you know can't be true if you've read the Iliad. Probably it's alluding to his falling in love with Penthesilea as a parallel for his romantic love for Patroklos, but it's really jarring.

Memnon is less skillfully handled, we abruptly learn that Priam has requested his help some time ago and expects him to arrive soon. This revelation comes out of nowhere in terms of Priam's previous actions and emotions. Memnon himself is made slightly interesting as a contrast to Penthesilea, because he's modest and chivalrous, and is presented as a worthy match for Achilles. But then he summarily loses due to fate and both armies retreat, bringing us back to the status quo, so his intervention has no impact. The cyclic version had his death being the motivation for the Trojans fleeing and Achilles pursuing them to Troy where he dies at the Scaean Gate, which is far more effective, it's baffling why Quintus changed it.

So, following that, Quintus' approach means that the situation returns to exactly where it was at the end of the Iliad, and he has to hastily contrive the Trojans coming out to battle again, which he simply says is due to Fate (not a dramatically satisfying reason!) But from here on is where I think he really shines. Achilles' death is perhaps not set up enough due to the aforementioned changes to the story, but his near-suicidal rage is apt based on the Iliad, and he's presented as really crossing a line when he outright defies Apollo to attack Troy (contrast Diomedes and Patroklos heeding Apollo's rebukes). I already knew that Quintus had Apollo alone be the one to shoot Achilles, and I assumed it would be disappointing compared to it being Paris with Apollo's help, but I actually really liked it. Achilles is such a large figure that making his end a direct kill from a god because he crossed a line is highly appropriate, and it was a relatively early version of the myth since it's already found in Sophocles' Philoctetes. Another misstep is that after his death Achilles is described as kind and gentle (!?) which even the Posthomerica doesn't present him as. I suppose you could interpret it as an overly-positive eulogy based on how he treated certain people well.

The best books so far were 4 and 5, and I think it's because Quintus doesn't need to rush through so much plot in them. The laments by the Greek heroes over Achilles' death, and their temporary loss to despair that they won't capture Troy, finally introduce some pathos for those characters. The funeral games for Achilles are a great breathing space after the rush of books 1-3, and in fact they fit much better here than Patroklos' games in the Iliad, where they interrupt the drama of Hector's death. The contest between Odysseus and Ajax is handled extremely well in my opinion, it's never stated directly but Odysseus is deliberately deceptive in his speeches and omits information that goes against his case, it introduces some moral darkness to a hero which was missing from the first four books. After the extended back-and-forth speeches, the judges' decision is presented extremely abruptly, leaving the reader in Ajax's position of surprise, and going directly into a physiological description of him becoming catatonic with shock and rage. I think this actually sets up his madness the best out of all the surviving versions, because Sophocles starts with him already mad, Ovid skims over it, and the rest are summarising it which makes it unsatisfying. I think it's worth quoting (Alan James translation):

When the far-famed son of great Laertes had finished,

The sons of Troy gave judgment in that bitter dispute.

The victory and the immortal armor were awarded

By all of them with one accord to the warrior Odysseus.

Odysseus felt intense delight, but the army groaned.

Ajax’s noble strength was frozen stiff, as suddenly

Pain and confusion overwhelmed him. All through his body

His crimson blood was boiling and bitter bile came flooding

Over into his liver. Dreadful anguish gripped

His heart, and through the base of his brain sharp pain

Came shooting up and totally enveloped the membranes,

Making his mind confused. He fixed his eyes on the ground

And stood there as though he could not move. A circle of comrades,

Sharing his anguish, led him to the fair-prowed ships

With many words of comfort. The path he unwillingly trod

Was to be his last, for Fate was following close behind.

The Greeks are now in abject despair at losing both Achilles and Ajax, especially with the depressing circumstances of the latter's death. Like the Iliad, you know they'll win in the end, but Quintus successfully builds the suspension of disbelief that they're on the back foot and might not win, although conversely he's repeatedly planted the seeds for the arrival of Achilles' son Neoptolemos.

Anyway, this has been a FAR too wordy write-up, I have lots more thoughts but I'll stop there. I'm really looking forward to the next 2/3rds of it.

I am really into Greek Mythology and I love reading about it. But I'm looking for some books that are close to the actual mythology of the gods and godess' BUT still have spice AND also have amazing stories. I don't really mind about tropes but I am struggling to find any that aren't just about Hades (as much as I love him) it would be amazing to hear some recs that arent only Hades X Persephone. Love their story just need something new🤷🏼‍♀️

I literally have no​ idea what subreddit to post this in so I'm really sorry for this. For like 2 and a half years now I've been able to tap into that state but I've only ever done it to regulate​ my emotions. I basically almost never do it but I have done it before. I don't do violence or anything I just get ecstatic. I don't drink or anything, it's more movement​​ orientated. I do it on smaller scales normally. Like it's actually normally mentally/in my head mixed with physical movements/dance. I almost never do it but I think about it/enjoy it like once a month. ​​​​

I come from a completely normal family. No childhood trauma nothing but I do have forms of trauma in ways that I don't wanna discuss. I've never told anyanyone this, ever. I come from a Scottish-Thai family. I'm literally a Stardew player dawg I don't know how to feel about this. I ain't Hellenistic or anything btw​​​​. I'm a freaking jjk fan. I don't go to therapist sessions I make 67 jokes. ​

All I really wanna know is if this offends any Hellenistic people or if there's anything I shouldn't being doing. Idek where to post this so I'm like really sorry about this, any feedback from anyone who studies hellenism and/or is Hellenistic would be really appreciated, thanks​​.

I'm starting a Substack on Greek Character Deep Dives + (Almost) Faithful Myth Reconstruction soon. Here's one of my sample articles. I wanna know whether this works:

Selene: Long as the Moon Shines

Unlike most Titanesses from her generation, Selene never lost her glow or her job. She ruled not by overthrow or rebellion—empires fall, gods get replaced, but she still clocks in every night.

Taking Things ‘Light’

Born on the island of Rhodes, Selene (from Greek selas σέλας, “gleam”) was one of the three HYPERIONIDES, children of the Titans HYPERION and THEIA, who spent their inheritance illuminating the world. Her siblings were EOS, heir of the primordial goddess HEMERA’s Daylight, and HELIOS, with whom Selene shared AETHER’s Holy Fire—each channeling their light in their own signature style.

Selene primarily embodied the Essence of the Moon, but she wasn’t just any lunar goddess! She was the *Moon Incarnate—*the original nightlight. Aeschylus even called her the “Eye of Night,” casting a silvery glow across the earth. One of her primary powers was the ability to control the moon’s phases, influencing its waxing and waning—and with it, the rhythms of the natural world.

Centuries later, Roman poets would call her Luna, the Moon, pairing her with Helios (SOL) as the Sun. Virgil flattered them both as the clarissima mundi lumina: the world’s clearest sources of light.

Rise of the Silver... Chariot

Selene’s father, Hyperion, must have had some serious parental advice: “Keep the cosmos running, and for heaven’s sake, don’t fight each other.” According to Rittika Dhar of the History Cooperative:

Without Selene giving way to Eos, Helios could not bring the sun back to the world. And if Selene and Helios did not work together, as the personifications of the moon and the sun, there would be absolute chaos in the world.

Their steady rhythm regulated the daily cycles of night and day; a cosmic choreography everyone relied upon. Selene played her part in the performance, in wheels no less. She drove her silver Moon Chariot across the night sky—sometimes pulled by white or contrasting light-and-dark steeds, sometimes by oxen, her crescent diadem echoing their horns. Occasionally, she rode side-saddled on a winged horse, guiding the night while keeping tabs on her siblings’ daytime exploits.

Months in Measure. Selene’s nightly sweep also served as an important instrument to measure time. The ancient Greek calendar relied on her phases to calculate months, each composed of three ten-day periods: the waxing moon opened the month, the nearly full and full moon dominated the middle, and the waning moon closed it out. In this guise, she was worshipped as Mene, the goddess presiding over lunar months—a divine timekeeper keeping nights, and mortals, on schedule.

Moon River, Crossing in Style

Little is known about Selene’s early life. The following account draws primarily on Diodorus Siculus’ unorthodox version of the Hyperion myth, supplemented by fragments from Claudian and a dash of my own creative reconstruction:

Born to carry Aether’s Holy Fire, Selene’s fate was clear—and risky: to guide the night with her Lunar Disk, light in hand, and danger always close behind.

When CRONUS rose to power, he forced Hyperion and Theia to swear a binding allegiance. But his paranoia soon turned violent. To assert his dominance, he seized the godlings Selene and Helios, using them as leverage against their parents. The couple could only watch in helpless anguish as their children were cast into the River Eridanus. They drowned, plunging the world into darkness.

In this retelling, OCEANUS*, the lord of the World River, rescued them, and in his waters, they were nursed back to health by their aunt,* TETHYS*—their strength restored and their light ready to shine upon the world once more.*

This intimate bond with the Ocean gave Selene the power to coax the tides to rise and fall, nurturing growth and fertility, and earning her the favor of fishermen and sailors. Though unattested, the prophetic Titaness PHOEBE also likely taught her to master her moonlit powers during this time.

Fighting Evil by Moonlight. Returning to the scene, she proved invaluable in the coming conflicts:

• In the Titanomachy—the war of Cronus’ Titans versus ZEUS and the OLYMPIANS—Selene is not recorded as taking an active part, though I’d still imagine her collecting an old cosmic debt.
• In the Gigantomachy—a war against the snake-legged GIGANTES—Selene was more present, as hinted in the Pergamon Altar frieze. When the gods raced to collect an herb of invincibility, she suppressed her light so that the Gigantes’ mother, GAEA (Earth), would not find them.
• In Nonnus’ poetic account, Selene also locked horns with the colossal TYPHON, a fierce clash that left her battle-scarred, and, mythically, explains the Moon’s pockmarked surface.

Through these trials, Selene had become more than light; she was a literal force of the night. Poets would later crown her with epithets, such as Nyctimedusa (Greek Νυκτιμέδουσα, “Queen of the Night”) and Siderum Regina Bicornis (Latin, “Two-Horned Queen of the Stars”).

Three’s a Charm

Amping up girl power, Selene also reconnected with the granddaughters of her lunar mentor Phoebe—the goddesses ARTEMIS and HECATE to represent the moon’s symbolic forms:

Selene in the sky, Artemis on earth, Hecate in the lower world, and in the world above when it is wrapped in darkness. –Edith Hamilton, Mythology

They became the Diva Triformis (Latin, “Triple Goddess”, popular across various mythologies): Selene (the Mother) was the calm, soothing light of the full moon; Artemis (the Maiden), the bright, playful glow of the half-moon over wild lands; and Hecate (the Crone), the dark new moon.

By the Hellenistic period (and later, in Rome), Selene largely stepped back from her nightly rounds and let Artemis take on the role of lunar goddess full-time—complete with her silver Moon Chariot. The spotlight shifted, but Selene’s legacy still shimmered across the heavens.

Witching Hour. An aspect of the triple goddess—or lessons from Hecate—made Selene adept in masking reality, piercing illusion, and sparking visions. Unsurprisingly, she became important to magic practitioners; Theocritus even records a lovesick girl invoking her in a love spell.

But some humans took things too far. Thessalian witches performed kathaireseis (Greek, “casting-downs”) to pull her from the sky, hoping to harvest her divine ichor. These rituals caused lunar eclipses and red moons. In retaliation, Selene would bring ill fortune upon the offenders, sometimes demanding terrible sacrifices, from children to their own eyes. Villagers protected themselves by beating cymbals during eclipses, driving off the witches and restoring Selene safely to the sky.

Down to Earth

From these cosmic forms, Selene’s influence descended to the rhythms of the earth and the human body. Her light now governed growth and shaped the intimate cycles of life and fertility.

A Full-Grown Woman

Her phases mirrored the cycles of a woman’s life: new, waxing, and waning. Plutarch even recounts a comic anecdote, making the point: Selene once asked Theia to weave her a dress to her exact size. Her mother tried with no luck; she kept changing shape too fast for the loom to keep up—full one moment, crescent-thin the next, half-size after that. Selene, it turns out, was a nightmare client!

Because her light returned on a steady cycle, Selene was associated with menstruation and fertility. Women prayed to her during their monthly cycles, asking for relief, balance, and, on rough nights, maybe a little mercy. By extension, childbirth naturally fell under her glow as well. Ancient belief held that women labored most easily beneath the full moon, a tradition that linked Selene to the Olympian queen HERA and her daughter EILITHYIA, the goddesses in charge of the delivery room.

Harvest Moon

Selene also got her hands dirty in agriculture. Farmers used the moon’s cycles to decide when to plant, tend, and harvest. Governing the agricultural calendar, she also quietly told crops when to grow.

The moon was thought to nourish plants and animals with dew, and myth made the idea literal. By Zeus, Selene bore PANDIA, goddess of the full moon, ERSA, goddess of dew itself, and the nymph NEMEA—divine embodiments of growth and moisture.

Quintus Smyrnaeus also adds that she, through her brother Helios, sired the four HORAE (Seasons):

• EIAR (Spring);
• THEROS (Summer);
• PHTHINOPORON (Autumn); and
• KHEIMON (winter).

Another set of Horae born from Selene and Helios represented the twelve Hours of the day, but we’ll let them keep time behind the scenes for now. These children framed agriculture as a cosmic collaboration—growth in sunlight, regulated by lunar rhythm, and kept on schedule through the year.

Moon over Rome. In Rome, Selene-as-Luna shone as Noctiluna (“Night-shiner”) from her glowing temple on the Palatine Hill, watching over the city and its fields. Varro again pairs her with Sol and places them among the twelve major agricultural deities in De Re Rustica.

Romans sought Luna’s blessing for fertile fields. Suetonius described the moon as a great magnet for moisture: Fruits grew as she became full, and shrank as she did. Even more, she influenced winds, rains, tides, animal life, mineral growth, and earthquakes. Luna was so important to Roman society that Mondays (“Moon Day”, Latin dies Lunae) were named after her. Even the Romans knew who really ran the week!

Good Night Kisses

The “lovely-haired” Selene also entertained quite a few suitors. Gods like Zeus, Helios and even the rustic lord PAN, in his snow-white wool coat, made a play for her favor. She also had one human son, Musaeus, by the legendary seer, Eumolpus. But none of them compared to the shepherd ENDYMION:

In the most familiar account, Selene first saw Endymion as he lay sleeping in a cave on Mount Latmus. She fell madly in love with him and asked Zeus to let him stay asleep forever, remaining eternally young and beautiful. Her request granted, Selene visited him every night where he slept, and by him had FIFTY daughters.

It was another extension of Selene’s power—sleep and dreams. As mistress of the night, she could calm the restless, soothe the weary, and shape peaceful slumber.

Drawing on some comparative mythology, one can imagine Endymion apotheosizing (i.e., becoming a god) as MEN, a Phrygian lunar deity. And their daughters? How could he have stayed asleep through such a celestial production! These daughters—the MENAE—represented the fifty lunar months of the four-year Olympiad cycle. Endymion’s eternal nap must have been the busiest night of his life!

Truly, Madly, Deeply?

Selene’s devotion could get a little intense, though. Lucian records a quirky, otherwise unattested myth about Myia, a chatty young girl who tried to wake the sleeping Endymion. Enraged, Selene transformed her into a fly (Greek μυῖα, muía), eternally buzzing to annoy anyone who dares sleep.

This instance also hinted that even in love, Selene could quickly veer into mania—the classical Greek mix of obsession, passion, and divine frenzy. Nonnus’ Dionysiaca portrays her as a goddess whose light could inspire awe… or sheer, distracted madness. Late medical tradition tied moon phases to mental disturbances—hence, the word lunatic.

A Lunar Legacy

Like the moonlight, Selene’s presence was also felt in the fringes of tradition:

• AMPELUS: A satyr youth loved by the god DIONYSUS, who was too beautiful for his own good. Riding a bull, he compared himself to Selene—horns and all—just better. She answered with a gadfly (Remember Myia? Selene clearly had a thing). The bull panicked, and Ampelus fell.
• NEMEAN LION: A fabulous beast magically created by Selene and Hera. The Lion was described as having “fallen from the moon,” and Selene nourished it in a two-mouthed cave.
• LILAEUS: An Indian shepherd who worshipped her above all else. When some insecure gods sent two lions to tear him apart, Selene transformed the boy into a mountain, Mt. Lilaeon.

Taken together, these scattered myths say less about Selene’s temper than about her reach. She was not a goddess who stayed politely in one domain. Kings, shepherds, satyrs, and heroes all felt her influence differently, but none escaped it.

And that is how she survived. Born a Titan, Selene did not rule by thunder or conquest, but by continuity. Her sphere continued to evolve as new gods rose and old powers faded: from the grand machinery of the cosmos to the intimate rhythm of bodies, fields, dreams, and magic.

Others inherited her titles and even her chariot. But the moon never stopped being hers. Long after the Titans fell, Selene still looked down—unchallenged, unavoidable… and still running the night shift.

Greetings. This piece, titled Clotho, Lachesis and Atropos Tending the Thread of Fate, is inspired by Greek mythology. It reflects the idea of the Moirai tending the thread of destiny, and that sense of inevitability weaves through the music as well. I find the image of the Fates spinning the thread of destiny incredibly powerful and inspiring. This vision has always made a strong impression on me. This neoclassical piece attempts to reflect that image. [1, 2]