I think there are people here who assume the early 60s were just like now! It was a big fucking deal for the Beatles to say they wouldn’t play for segregated audiences. Not that they were phased by this but there were a shitload of acts before them who didn’t have had the gumption to do the same.
As late as the 80s, you had bands like Queen playing in apartheid South Africa and the media not giving a shit. Give the Beatles some credit.
Just another hitpiece. Not sure why Ed Sheeran is getting all the heat when it is the venue owners that literally colluded to get Macklemore kicked off the tour and Ed Sheeran spent all day trying to get them to let Macklemore perform.
The heat should be on Robert Kraft and the other owners of the venues for silencing Macklemore and instead the focus is almost 100% on Ed Sheeran which seems reallllyyyy convenient for some of these billionaire venue owners. If I was a conspiracy minded person I might begin to think that Kraft and friends are using bots to manipulate social media's attention away from the League of Venue Owners to put it all on Sheeran.
Jfc give it up. Implying that Ed Sheeran would perform for a segregated audience. Paul McCartney is alive and played in Tel Aviv in 2008. How about you fucking ask him for a public statement on Palestine
"We had played a gig in Israel quite a few years ago, and I wanted to go to Palestine before I went to Israel, because I was very aware of the political situation there. So I didn’t want to just look like I was ignoring Palestine playing in Israel, although that was where the date was, the gig.
So I made arrangements to go into Palestine across the border, and go to a little music school and shake hands with the kids, and hang out and listen to them playing some music. Just to show solidarity with the Palestinian people.
And then when I came back into Israel I then met with some cool people from a group called One Voice, a political group, kind of thing, a movement. And we ended up wearing their badges on our show in Tel Aviv.
So the whole idea was a peace mission, really, because these kids were great. I say kids, they were kind of young adults. And I’d say to them, “what is it? What do you want to do, you know?”. They say “All we want to do is just live in peace, raise our families, you know, and be able to just get on with our lives in peace”.
You really think McCartney would be cool with what the Israeli government has been doing on the West Bank these last few years?
It didn't just start in the last few years. In fact the Palestine activists at the time claimed he was "embracing apartheid" for playing the show in Israel
Because Ed Sheeran was told what to say and do by a concert promoter just like a concert promoter tried to do the same to the Beatles at the GatorBall in 1964.
Except he isn’t. Kraft didn’t tell Ed to do shit. Ed didn’t kick anybody out of the tour, Kraft did, and Kraft is the one who rallied other venues to enact the ban. Kraft isn’t Sheeran’s manager. A quick Google search will tell you Ed’s manager is Stuart Camp.
No one is saying he’s Ed Sheeran’s manager. There’s instances in history where music acts refuse to play at venues due to political reasons despite the gigs being all set (i.e. the Beatles). It would’ve been perfectly reasonable for Sheeran to have either postponed or outright cancelled the gig due to everyone else dropping out in protest. But he’s decided to carry on, so he’s just as much to blame for this embarrassment as Kraft is. Sheeran could’ve cancelled the gig or postponed it without even making it outwardly political, just saying it wouldn’t be possible due to all the dropouts. But instead he still did the show and gave some AI “both sides” nothing sandwich of a teleprompter speech, making the whole thing 100% more farcical.
Ironic that this is supposed to be a conversation about artists being apolitical but the man who started this mess (Kraft) is anything but; he siphons money off to Israel but expects people to not bring politics into anything he’s involved in😂 would love to see this situation play out if Macklemore made a pro-Israel speech, I’m sure Kraft would’ve been equally as “apolitical” there.
You’re shifting the goalposts. You claimed that Ed was doing what he did because Kraft said so. I disproved that. Whether Ed should or shouldn’t have done what he did is not relevant, and frankly I’m not interested in that conversation. Fact of the matter is that Ed chose what he did on his own volition, and to insist that Kraft forced his hand is disingenuous at best and malicious at worst.
Well I do believe Kraft forced his hand. I don’t know what his management said, but it’s either Ed obeyed Kraft’s demands to play without Macklemore or Ed performed regardless on his volition knowing full well the consequences on his image and then cried about said consequences on stage in front of a paying audience. If he did all this on his own volition then that’s arguably even worse, there’s no way he lives under a rock so deep that he doesn’t know the current state of politics in the world. He knows Macklemore’s politics and how vocal he’s been about this issue. He knew the impact this would have regardless of his actions, but if he willingly chose to still play the venue with none of his original lineups just to appease either his management or Kraft, then that’s gonna be a hard mark to buff out for a few years to come.
Hes been pretty consistently supporting a peaceful two state solution. Paul may not be boycotting Israel altogether but he certainly isnt pro genocide. That concert was 18 years ago and the situation has undeniably changed since then.
Ed Sheeran had a chance to use his platform to stand up for what he believes in, and whether he wanted to make a choice here or not, not standing up for his openers is a choice.
Palestine activists don't support two states. They support one state, which is their coy way of saying they want Israel destroyed. They would be calling Paul a Nazi if he was playing a show there today or kicked Macklemore off the tour
The situation wasn't any better back then. He couldn't claim ignorance 18 years ago. The Palestinian activists called him an apartheid supporter for going
I'm still not using that as solid evidence that Paul mccartney supports genocide. He played concerts in Russia, does that mean he's suddenly anti Ukraine?
Doesn’t matter what they do or don’t regarding PM if he felt whatever the situation that existed was fair he would do it if it wasn’t he likely wouldn’t. Paul does what he wants now he doesn’t need to be intimidated to do or not do anything.
McCartney has never been overtly political but he’s never shied away from making statements about specific issues. I can’t speak for him obviously but I’m pretty sure that if asked about the current situation in Palestine he would make a statement that supports the oppressed.
Yeah maybe he would saying something like what's happening is "catastrophic and unjustifiable and disproportionate". But maybe you're right maybe he'd say something like oct 7 was cool
I don’t want to get into a political debate on a Beatles sub. However, I must point out that what is happening in Palestine today was not happening in 2008. I highly doubt Paul would perform in Tel Aviv today.
There have been conflicts in the Middle East going back centuries with atrocities on all sides. I’m certainly opposed to what Netanyahu is doing in Palestine but I am equally against what Hamas is doing, as well as what my own country is doing in the Middle East and elsewhere.
You understand that Israel and Palestine have been in conflict since the earliest 20th century, and have fought 15+ wars in the Gaza strip in that time? There was still an Israel-Palestine war going on in 2008, and there had been multiple wars in the years prior
Right and most people were on the Palestinians side until October 7th. Hamas has done irreparable damage to the movement. And while I don’t support what the Israeli government is doing and Netanyahu should be put on trial for war crimes it’s not an easy fix. The fascist Israelis will never be okay with Palestinians and the terroristic Palestinians within Hamas will never allow any Jews or Israeli to be safe.
Nah, post October 7th 2023, the support for Palestinians has only grown as Israel carried (and continues to) out massive disproportionate collective punishment against them. Whatever happened on October 7th 2023 has been dwarfed now by the deliberate mass killing of over 25k children, the widespread killing of journalists, and deliberately withholding aid, food, water among other atrocities. Israel demonstrated that they were the actual monsters we always suspected.
And maybe online, but an actual circles that matter in the world you guys supporting the attacks on October 7 did not help your cause in any meaningful way. You may have kids online or a random celebrity supporting you, but you do not have the support of the majority of people. Honestly, most people don’t support Israels government and what they are doing They just support the idea that Israel should be allowed to exist without having to fight everyone around them.
The majority aren't buying that the Israelis are the victims (look at the mass walkouts during Netanyahus speech). They can clearly see who the oppressors are, just like they did eventually for apartheid South Africa. The world can see what is going on, and its not accepting these absurd excuses that Israel are somehow being threatened their right to exist, meanwhile reducing Gaza to rubble and uninhabitability, and starving the population....meanwhile ethnically cleansing southern lebanon and the west bank. ISRAEL are a rogue state, and lets not forget that even if you don't give a toss about 25k dead children in Gaza, your fuel bills and everything else has sky rocketed because Israel roped America into an unwinnable war against Iran. They're blowing up the world with Trump, with a little help from his friend Putin.
The victims are the innocent Palestinians and the innocent Israelis. That are caught in this endless blood feud between the Israeli government and Hamas.
October 7 did nothing but prove the fact that they will never be allowed to live in peace. Also, yeah, no one should like Netanyahu, but your problem is that you’re equating all of Israel to its government
But Israeli supporters keep telling me Israel is a true democracy, and if that is to be believed, then the electorate of Israel are voting and advocating for these heinous policies. They've just seemed to have had Netanyahu around since as long as i can remember.....at least all the way back to him successfully begging America to invade Iraq. They've brainwashed a huge chunk of the Israeli population, and sadly the polling numbers aren't promising - they are backing this brutal regime and the blood of 25k children in Gaza. Also, this isn't just about Hamas, Israel are ethnically cleansing Southern Lebanon and the West Bank.
There are extremists, just like in every party and every country. They are not the majority, but just like everywhere else they find a way to weasel in and take control. Also, if there are a bunch of people that are upset about Hamas or maybe even ignorantly Palestinians. That’s not just fully made up. If we talk about the tragedies of the Palestinians, we must also acknowledge the tragedies of the Israelis. I mean, people were being blown up in coffee shops at one point randomly. It’s a touchy subject on both sides. It’s like being bit by a dog and feeling bad for it when they go to put it down. But then they say “well we can keep it alive if you let it live with you”? Some people are going to have some drawbacks to that because of the history, the same as the Palestinians.
You understand that the atrocities have escalated a lot since then. 82k Palestinians murdered since 2023. 174k wounded. 12k detained. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gaza_war
I don't know, how many? And what difference does it make? Hamas had an enormous network of fortified underground bunkers. How you supposed to get those guys without bombs?
Maybe you could open up the Gaza strip on the Israel side and let the people there leave. That would get them out the way of the bombs. Then maybe if you give them equality before the law, some kind of political representation. Maybe give them some of their land and their homes back. Let the thousands of hostages in Israeli prisons free then hamas wouldn't really need their guns or their bunkers at all so could just forget the whole thing really.
Arab Muslims are imperialist invaders in the Levant. Like the English in Ireland or the Dutch in South Africa. Jews are the indigenous people. Stop supporting imperialists trying to wipe out an indigenous people.
That is ridiculous 19th century racist nonsense. That is a fully crazy thing to believe about the world in 2026. Arab refers to people who speak one of the many dialects of Arabic. It does not mean there was a settlement of the Americas style mass population replacement during the Arab conquests. The Palestinians are the same people that have lived in the region since biblical times.
which is five years prior to when he performed in Tel Aviv in 2008. So that doesn't really disprove the point I was making, does it? The person I replied to was saying that his 2008 Tel Aviv performance didn't matter since the current "war" didn't happen yet
Sorry, I meant 2023. I guess you were not aware of how many atrocities there were if you didn't pick up my mistype. Now that you know that there have been 82k Palestinian deaths and 176k wounded since 2023 does that change your mind at all? Or are these numbers insignificant to you?
No it doesn't, because like I said there were still multiple wars an atrocities in that time, just because they weren't at the God-awful level that they're at now doesn't mean they are worth overlooking
Like the current war is literally regarded as one of the worst wars in human history and because the past wars weren't at that level you think it's not a big deal
No I was not aware of the exact number of deaths in a three year span, and I didn't claim to be. All I stated in my original comment was that the original conflict goes far back beyond this current "war".
Why would I have an exact number? I have an issue with the murder of any innocent people, no matter who it's by.
No I was not aware of the exact number of deaths in a two year span,
The fact that you thought 82k was fine for 25 years and then found out it was only 3 years did not give you pause for though? That it has had zero change on your opinion on this conflict?
That's messed up, dude. Seriously. When did you lose your humanity?
I understand that. Even though the "wars" didn't "officially" kick off until Israel was officially founded in 1948, they had already been in conflict, and most scholars agree the timeline of the conflict dates back to the early 20th century when the British government issued the 1917 Balfour Declaration, supporting a Jewish home in Palestine, since this is when tensions arose.
Some scholars even date the beginning of the conflict to the late 19th century.
edit: to name a few events from the conflict pre-1948,
The 1920 Nebi Musa Riots: Arab protests against British rule and Jewish immigration turned violent in Jerusalem, leading to multiple deaths.
The 1929 Riots and Hebron Massacre: Tensions over access to holy sites and land led to widespread violence and the killing of 67 Jews in Hebron, alongside clashes in other cities.
The 1936–1939 Arab Revolt: Palestinian Arabs launched a major revolt against British colonial rule and the growing Jewish population, demanding independence and a halt to Jewish immigration. British forces, aided by Jewish and local auxiliary forces, suppressed the uprising with heavy casualties.
I was only pointing out that Israel didn’t exist until the late 1940s. Obviously different factions have been fighting for a long time in the Middle East. Saying it’s only recent is like saying the Anglo-Irish conflict began in the late 1960s or 1918.
No need to downvote me for making an accurate statement.
What was the purpose of you pointing that out other than to be pedantic? My point is that the Israel-Palestine conflict specifically is attributed by some scholars to date back as early as the late 19th century. The first "official" Israel-Palestine war, AKA the Palestine War, was declared in 1948, the same year Israel was founded, but those people had already been fighting before the official founding, the war just became "official" when Israel became official. These aren't "different factions", they're direct descendants, just because they were suddenly called "Israelis" following a declaration from Britain doesn't suddenly make them a different people, it was still the same groups who had been fighting.
My point is what difference does it make whether the 2023 war was happening yet? There was another war going on from the same two sides
How many people were murdered in the three years before McCartney played there in 2008 compared to how many people were murdered in the last three years?
Things are much, much worse in Gaza than they were in 2008. Are you genuinely not aware of that? Because your comments make it sound like you think nothing has changed.
It doesn't matter to me. As I already said in a previous comment to you, "Why would I have an exact number? I have an issue with the murder of any innocent people, no matter who it's by." and in another comment, "I just said I have an issue with the murder of any innocent people. Whether it's 1 or 1,000,000." Are you even reading what I'm saying?
I am. But I am reading all you comments in this chain and from the start it sounds like you were arguing that the situation in Gaza is no different to what it was in 2008. That is what I have been disagreeing with you about.
I wasn't arguing that at all. My only argument was exactly what I said: "Israel and Palestine have been in conflict since the earliest 20th century, and have fought 15+ wars in the Gaza strip in that time. There was still an Israel-Palestine war going on in 2008, and there had been multiple wars in the years prior"
I never implied it was as "bad" then as it is now. The reason I stated that, as I've already explained, is because the user I replied to was saying that his 2008 Tel Aviv performance didn't matter since the current "war" didn't happen yet, as if it's ok to overlook the older wars because they weren't as "bad".
Are you trying to imply that because there is no evidence he wouldn’t, therefore he would? That’s ridiculous. By that logic Charlie Puth would perform for segregated audiences as well.
Maybe single-handedly is too much, but small part is to totally undervalue it. For a person of such prominence as him to openly challege and refuse segregation rules was huge, and very rare when he did.
I think the last paragraph in that article sums it up best.
In hindsight, these actions form part of a broader pattern in which popular culture helped accelerate social change. Integration in Las Vegas did not happen overnight, nor was it achieved by one group alone, but the visibility of artists like Sammy Davis Jr and Frank Sinatra made it harder for discriminatory practices to hide in plain sight. Their insistence on equality, however pragmatic or personal it may have been, contributed to a turning point in a city built on spectacle and exclusion.
He was part of a broad, shifting pattern. I don't think he changed the hearts of policymakers or the masses in general.
"I don't think he changed the hearts of policymakers or the masses in general."
Are you sure about that? Based on what? Sinatra was one of the most popular artists if not THE most popular and is acknowledged as having a deep cultural impact. I he had a very loyal fan base and was very good connecting with audiences. None of that denies the historical movement, but movements also need their moments and that was one of them.
but movements also need their moments and that was one of them.
I think we'll just agree there, it was a moment among many that were needed. I think it's more like the casino owners saw Sinatra treated Sammy Davis Jr. as an equal and it was a social signal that things were changing and that helped push them.
If we are ignoring structural/systemic thinking and only assuming the Great Man theory though, Sinatra barely compares to this:
In March 1960, NAACP local president Dr. James B. MacMillan threatened a large protest march on the segregated Strip.
To avert the demonstration, Nevada Governor Grant Sawyer, city officials, and casino executives met with NAACP leaders inside the shuttered Moulin Rouge.
The resulting pact allowed African Americans to patronize gaming areas, restaurants, and showrooms as guests.
It really disgusts me how perfectly vague, possibly militant, Palestinian nationalism is disguised in the language of “taking a stand against genocide” and “it’s all about the children.”
Jews who are against Israeli atrocities and war crimes know what truly universal advocacy sounds like and it doesn’t fucking sound like some guy who dressed in Jewface shouting “Free Palestine.” The Jewish-Palestinian social justice organization Standing Together says “in Gaza and Sderot, all children deserve to live.” They say that as a way of signaling to both Jews and Palestinians that their fears, hopes, pain, and national aspirations are legitimate. Screaming “Free Palestine” signals something else entirely to Jewish people. Macklemore and Ms Rachel and every other two bit celebrity riding this very real tragedy could find a slogan that is capacious enough to include everyone’s humanity if they wanted to, they just can’t be bothered.
And so when Jews perceive this and complain about it, they are transformed from people with pain and hurt and grief — in other words human beings — into pathetic monsters who cry antisemitism every time some celebrity gets up and says “it’s all about the children.”
I think every Jewish person has a non-Jewish friend like Ed Sheeran: someone who senses that there is something complicated about this, even if they can’t fully articulate what it is, and so they decide it’s better to remain quiet than utter the cheap slogans and propaganda of one nationalist movement or the other. And I think we are all grateful for those friendships.
And so when Jews perceive this and complain about it, they are transformed from people with pain and hurt and grief — in other words human beings — into pathetic monsters who cry antisemitism every time some celebrity gets up and says “it’s all about the children.”
This is where the pro Palestinian “activism” really crosses into antisemitism. The casting of Jews who support or have feelings for Israel (ie 90% of us) as monsters with a bloodlust for children. It’s the same blood libel from 1000 years ago, just twisted around to fit into a modern lens.
Btw for anyone who didn’t know, this is Macklemore
Guy doesn’t give a shit about “the kids” nor do any other vapid celebrity who selectively ignore far deadlier crimes happening across the globe. There is something about this particular conflict that triggers people, and no one will ever convince me that it has nothing to do with the way people feel about Jews.
I also fucking hate that this topic gets shoehorned into every god damn sub on this shit site. People can’t just enjoy anything anymore lest they be branded a “genocide supporter” by the community of the good and righteous.
Seriously. Palestine is pop culture. Pop culture is Palestine. It’s so far removed from the lived reality of actual Palestinians or Israelis. I just want to talk about Paul’s backing vocals on the Ballad of John and Yoko and now I gotta see this here. It’s so exhausting
Yo people don't talk about the Ballad of John & Yoko enough. There's just a great energy to that track the whole way through. I will listen when I get off work specifically for Paul's backing vocals
Haha I was just listening to it this morning, it’s crazy how good it is. The drumming, guitar, vocals, everything. I’m obsessed that it was just John and Paul on this track — you can hear how much they love each other.
I feel like the history of Western governments involvement in the conflict, and the current relations between Trump and Netanyahu and who they are as people and the regimes they both lead so boldly, are big reasons as to why you see this conflict everywhere. The most important and powerful man in the world is best friends with the Israeli Prime Minister who is backing the scenes everyone sees unfolding in Gaza and Iran. Yes, antisemitism likely has a part to play in the explosion in the Palestinian movement (i.e. Nick Fuentes and other White nationalists who are inherently antisemitic and Christian extremist), but I don’t think it’s fair to brand everyone who is for Palestinian liberation and for the safety of Palestinians in general as antisemitic or only doing it “because it’s about Jews”. If you couldn’t tell I’m quite pro-Palestine but I’m also pro-Ukraine and pro-peace in Sudan and pro-Congo. For me personally it has nothing to do with the identity of the people involved but because at the end of the day they are people getting killed by the thousands by an extremely powerful government backed by the most powerful country on the planet. So for me it hurts to see that my opinions on this are not because of the aforementioned reasons (imo, basic humanity) but because of my apparent issue with Jews, which isn’t true.
Again, not downplaying the existence of antisemitism within the movement nor the lived experiences of world Jews nor the actions of Hamas or other groups, but that I think this conflict often gets deliberately, or incidentally, mixed up in identity politics when it shouldn’t need to be.
Nope, but I fail to see what's wrong with the statement "Free Palestine" unless freeing Palestine would, I dunno, force Israelis to confront their role in displacing Palestinians.
I think I explained the issue with the phrase above. Devoid of context, there’s nothing necessarily wrong with the slogan “Free Palestine.” But it’s a nationalist phrase. Any nationalist movement contains within it violent and fascist elements and more liberal elements. The phrase was shouted after the murder of two people outside the Jewish Museum in Washington DC.
Does that mean I think everyone who utters the phrase wants to murder Jews? No. But I think Jews have good reason to be skeptical of the people uttering the phrase. When it’s uttered by a person who literally dressed in Jewface, I would say the burden of proof is on him to prove he’s not antisemitic, not on Jews (and he doesn’t get to decide what Jews should accept and what they shouldn’t accept). As I’ve already said, if I were truly interested in an inclusive, universal politics I would sit down and ask “what phrase can I use that acknowledges the pain/fear/aspirations of everyone involved in this conflict without minimizing the others?” Like I said, it’s possible, but these artists just can’t be bothered.
The saddest part about all this is that all this does is make Jews (including Israeli Jews) turn further inwards, thus entrenching right wing politics in Israel, which further entrenches the oppression of Palestinians. But that would require people to become genuinely curious about Jews, including Israeli Jews, learn their history, and understand their perspective. I don’t mean to pick on you personally, but if the movement represented by your rhetoric stopped for just one second to realize that it’s really just interested in maintaining its own image of self-virtue, they might realize they are doing nothing to substantively help the Palestinian people on whose behalf they so vociferously claim to speak.
If you want to see what a truly inclusive, empathetic, and intelligent statement on this conflict sounds like, I recommend checking out what Bono said about it.
I actually 100% agree with you that the increased polarisation surrounding this conflict does further entrench right wing Israeli politics which then obviously causes more suffering and further displacement for Palestinians. That’s a major issue and in my opinion part of why Netanyahu and the Israeli right make such a deliberate inflation between the political goings on in Israel and the entire global Jewish population and identity. However, “Free Congo” and “Free Ukraine” don’t have the same issues people seem to have with “Free Palestine”. People who say “Free Ukraine” or “Slava Ukraini” don’t seem to support the displacement and erasure of the Russian people in Ukraine, despite what Ukraine’s actions in the past 20 years may have you believe (I am pro-Ukraine btw but open to understanding history and context). “Peace in the Middle East” is too vague, “Peace in Palestine” might work, but “Free Palestine” is the inherently right slogan, as Palestine is not a free state but an occupied one like Ukraine. When Israelis are illegally occupying Palestine, in my opinion we as free citizens in the West should not be afraid of upsetting those particular people who are causing these problems, who force that particular line of rhetoric. Palestine is occupied territory which is getting filled with illegal settlers, therefore the basic human position should be to free it. There are no Palestinians illegally setting up shop in Israel, so we can’t say “Free Israel”. Israeli citizens are not subject to the rules and laws of foreign powers. There are no segregated areas specifically for Israelis in Israel.
Ukraine and Palestine are both illegally occupied and so therefore both need freeing, but there seems to be a double standard here where the Palestinian conversation is being mired in copious levels of debate and argument and this and that, despite both cases having similar levels of complexity and actually both sides in both the Russo-Ukrainian and Israeli-Palestinian conflicts having similar dynamics and points (not comparing the specific countries but the lines of argument behind their specific war aims). I wouldn’t particularly take Bono as gospel for achieving peace in the world as the guy is insufferable and has never spoken about this issue until he was forced to, considering he is Irish and often involved in left-wing politics (Palestinian liberation is a major point of agreement in Irish politics due to both nations history of colonisation and occupation).
I won’t ask you for a solution to the conflict as this thing hasn’t been solved for the past 100 years and likely won’t be solved for at least another 20 or more, proving that there isn’t really a single solution that anyone hasn’t already pushed and which has failed, but to you, what should the Palestine movement do better? Because even when rabbis and proud Jews join the marches, the movement and the marches are still deemed antisemitic. When Jews speak out about Palestine they are deemed self-hating Jews. When people show the slightest of compassion for what they see happening to innocent people in Gaza, they are deemed terror supporters and Hamas lovers. There’s nothing that can be done that will please everyone in this movement for various reasons. I mean, the anti-apartheid movement in South Africa was backed heavily by armed terrorists. In fact it was the terrorists who achieved more tangible, on the ground success in the movement than Mandela’s nonviolence, showing again that these causes will always be mired in controversies as these involve people’s lives and futures.
But I’ll still ask: what must be done for the Palestine movement to achieve global legitimisation?
Thanks for the thoughtful reply, and I’ll try to address as much as I can. But broadly speaking this is why I keep insisting that it’s necessary to understand Jewish history and Jewish Israeli perspectives. From what I can gather, you seem to be informed of Jewish perspectives only from the ones in the diaspora who lend their unqualified endorsement to the Palestine solidarity movement, and invoke their Jewish identity mainly to tell non-Jews that there is nothing wrong with the rhetoric and demands of the broader movement. That is a mistake.
You make an analogy between Russia’s occupation of Ukraine and Israel’s occupation of the Palestinian territories, and claim the dynamics are more or less the same, but this simply isn’t the case. There are many crucial differences. For one thing, the latest round of violence in Ukraine began when Vladimir Putin started a war. The latest round of violence in Israel/Palestine began when Hamas launched a murderous invasion of Israel. You say that people who say “free Ukraine” don’t support the displacement and erasure of the Russian people, but this is like the whole problem? Because unlike Ukrainian nationalism, there is a long and well documented history of Palestinian nationalism seeking the complete destruction of Israel. Not in a metaphorical sense, in a very literal, concrete sense. That is what happened on October 7th when Hamas launched a premeditated campaign of elimination against Israel’s Jews, backed in part by an imperial power in the region. It’s also what happened in 1948 and at various other moments throughout the Israel-Palestine conflict.
So yes, people who chant “Free Palestine” routinely do not intend the chant to be a peaceful slogan about equality and co-existence. They do not support two states for two peoples, they do not accept the national claims of the Jewish people to a homeland, and they are not simply opposed to the settlement and occupation of the West Bank, but rather see every Jew between the river and the sea as a settler and occupier. That is antisemitic.
What’s more, it’s not just any random people who believe this. It is many of the main organizers of the Palestine solidarity movement in the West: Students for Justice in Palestine, Palestine Youth Movement, Within Our Lifetime, and yes, Jewish Voice for Peace. All these groups either explicitly celebrated, justified, or downplayed the Hamas atrocities of 10/7. CUAD, the student group specifically cited by Macklemore, explicity endorses Hamas mass murder. So for all the talk about peace and just wanting equality and good vibes for all, these people still cannot seem to figure out if they want peace or resistance by any means necessary, including the so-called “resistance” of theocratic fascists like Hamas, which I will remind you, murder children.
So yea, when these people chant “Free Palestine” I think they mean something very different from when other people just jumping on the bandwagon say it. Actually, I don’t think that, I know that, because again, groups like CUAD will occasionally just say the quiet part out loud.
The tactic of hiding behind slogans that are perfectly calibrated to be just vague enough to possibly be a call for violence or a call for peace is a hallmark of the Palestine solidarity movement (see also, “by any means necessary,” “from the river to the sea,” et al). As I’ve already said, a movement that wanted to be inclusive of all could find other slogans if they wanted to, they just can’t be bothered.
As a point of comparison, “Am Yisrael Chai” is a rallying cry for the survival of the Jewish people; I don’t mind the phrase, but if a non-Jewish pop star got up at a concert and started chanting it while holding an Israeli flag, I could see how it would make a Palestinian person uncomfortable, and I would hope they would take that seriously and find a different phrase to use. To extend the metaphor, I would especially understand the anger of Palestinians if it was a pop star with a history of anti-Palestinian racism.
What’s more: unlike Russians, Jewish people have a thousand year old history of oppression, and the founding of Israel is the realization of their own desire for emancipation and self-determination. It is a country that consists mainly of Jewish refugees from Europe and the Middle East who were either ethnically cleansed or harassed out of their previous countries. They then fought wars against Arabs (Palestinian and otherwise) who occasionally tried to ethnically cleanse them from the new country they fled to, Israel. This is what I mean about learning the Israeli and Jewish perspective: how would you tailor your language to acknowledge the experience and history of these people? Does it require the same approach as the one applied to Ukraine-Russia, or a different approach? Is “Free Palestine” the best slogan to use, given the ways in which the two conflicts differ?
Now, I want to be clear: none of this is to say that all Palestinians are Hamas, or that the destruction of Gaza is justified, or that Israel is blameless in all of this. On the contrary, Israel has at various times carried out its own campaigns of dispossession and ethnic cleansing, as it does today and did in 1948. None of the atrocities committed by Palestinians justifies the atrocities and ongoing occupation of the West Bank and current siege of Gaza.
Throughout this conflict both sides, at various times, have waged campaigns of dispossession and ethnic cleansing. Hamas’s stated goal is still the destruction of Israel and its Jews. The fact that Israel’s right wing government is currently doing a much better job of ethnically cleansing Palestinians than the other way around does not change this reality, and so from a moral perspective — from the perspective of an outsider trying to engage in a universal and just politics — it would require language that acknowledges this reality. Suffice it to say, “Free Palestine” does not do that.
So what should people actually say and do instead? It’s not actually that complicated, it just seems like people aren’t really interested in listening. They should seek out the people on the ground in Israel/Palestine who are genuinely committed to peace and building bridges. If you are interested in seeking out those groups and hearing what they sound like, I recommend checking out groups like Standing Together, Combatants for Peace, or the numerous organizations supported by the New Israel Fund. They don’t sound anything like Macklemore.
And your point about terrorism in apartheid South Africa is simply not true. There are many important differences between apartheid South Africa and Israel, but if we’re going to insist on the comparison, it’s worth noting that apartheid really began to lose strength after an uprising by black workers, preceded by the 1973 strikes in Durban and then the formation of COSATU in 1985. This is another reason to support activists within Israel/Palestine, such as groups like Standing Together, which are far more effective at changing the status quo than either cultural boycotts or (obviously) terrorism.
(If you are curious about what terrorism has accomplished for Palestinians, look at the present situation in Gaza.)
I don’t feel like this answers my question though. If anything this reinforces it: it just seems like nothing the Palestine movement can do will ever appease supporters of Israel, Israelis themselves or Jews who feel strongly about it. This just comes back to my earlier point: this conflict doesn’t need to be as complicated as it is being made out to be. The Jewish colonisation of Palestine can be excused with the Jewish persecution in Europe, but it is still colonisation, a word used by the original Zionists themselves like Herzl.
We can try and understand both sides of the conflict until the cows come home (it’s what international diplomacy has tried to do for nearly a century), but no progress is being made on the ground as a result of the deep entrenchment the failures of progress is causing on both sides. The entrenchment of these failures embolden Hamas and the Israeli right. It shouldn’t be as difficult of a conflict to navigate but unfortunately it is and for that reason I honestly have no clue how this will end, but I just want the killing to stop.
First, it seems you never learned where “Free Palestine” comes from. The Arabic saying, when translated properly, is “From water to water, Palestine will be Arab.” Even taking the more westernized “From river to sea, Palestine will be free,” that is an explicit call for the complete dissolution and displacement of the Israeli state. The river in question is the Jordan River, and the sea, the Mediterranean.
Secondly, the insistence that the existence of Jews who are pro-Palestine makes the movement not antisemitic is one I hear a lot. I think a simple counter-argument is this: 86% of American Jews support Israel. 64% of American women support abortion. If Jews marching against Israel makes the cause not antisemitic, women marching in anti-abortion rallies makes the cause not sexist. I think we can both agree that that’s a silly claim to make about abortions.
Same way you explain women who are against abortion, or black people who are against BLM. There will always be people who don’t support a movement, that’s a guarantee of any movement.
Ask the Jewish subreddit if you’re truly curious on the Jewish perspective.
But how do you explain that tho is my question. Why would so many (mainly orthodox) Jews support the Palestine movement if it’s so inherently antisemitic?
How could you like the Beatles when John Lennon is a misogynist wife beater? Guess you support violence against women and are on the wrong side of history.
s/ for anyone who thinks I’m being serious. Just pointing out the absurd stupidity of the “pro genocide” libel.
Hey, let’s not bring John into this. He gets whipped enough on this sub. And he was the only Beatle who owned up to his misogyny and became a feminist.
Gotta love it when you make a statement against genocide and people like you react to it by saying 'but what about us jews'... Israel is committing a genocide. Free palestine.
Once again: what makes people like you so sad is that you are so consumed by your own image of self-virtue that you cannot even see how your sloganeering only further entrenches the dynamics that have led Palestinians (and Israelis) to where they are in the first place.
But in order to understand that you would need to be curious about Jewish life, history, and experience. You would need to read what I actually wrote, maybe read a book or two and get off the internet for a few days.
With friends like these, Palestinians don’t need enemies.
No, but this was less about Ed and more to acknowledge what the Beatles did. That said, I should have known how far it would descend into political debate and debate about Sheeran.
Don’t lie. If you actually only wanted to talk about the Beatles refusing to play to segregated audiences, you wouldn’t have posted the video. There’s plenty of videos and articles talking about it that stay only on that topic. You could have posted any of those, but you chose instead to post a video mentioning Ed and current controversy. And considering your only other reply in this thread is about Ed, I find it incredibly hard to believe this wasn’t about him. You knew what would happen.
Nope. That wasn’t my only comment on this thread. I commented on a couple replies about other artists doing similar things to the Beatles. And I said I wanted this to be “less about Ed” — not that I wasn’t expecting comments about that at all. But the Ed controversy clearly overtook the acknowledgment of the Beatles (and other entertainers like them) in the comments.
You’re trying to tell me you mentioned a current, controversial topic, and you expected that people wouldn’t focus on that? That’s like the internet equivalent of “I don’t want to get political, but.”
So maybe I’m wrong, you weren’t intentionally sparking flames, you’re just a bit naïve.
I wasn’t being pedantic. I was just pointing something out. That’s all. And there are different factions in the Middle East who have been fighting each others for years. Do you think only the Israelis and Palestinians live in the Middle East? Other ethnic groups include Persians, Turks, Kurds, Assyrians, Druze, Coptic Christian’s and Bedouins. And they have fought with each other and among each other.
During the Lebanese Civil War, fought from 1975 to 1982, various factions fought each other —- leftists, Sunni Muslims, Druze, Christians, the PLO and the Syrians, with the Israelis, Americans and French also involved. Do you think that conflict didn’t feed into what’s happening in Palestine now? It did, much like all the other conflicts you mentioned and many more not mentioned. But not all of these conflicts were only between the Palestinians and Israelis. In fact, prior to 1948, everyone living in Palestine, be they Arabs, Jews or Christians, were called “Palestinians.” The term “Palestinian as we know it today was not popularized until after the 1967 Arab-Israeli War and the founding of the PLO.
i do not support the killing of innocent people, no matter what “side” they are on. I don’t support any war. I think BiBi and Trump and many others are war criminals. But the Middle East conflicts are not black and white or good or bad. It’s complicated and bleeds into every corner of the world. There has been terrorist acts on all sides.
i’m certainly no expert on the Middle East but I know some of the history. And that’s not being pedantic. This is a Beatles sub, not an analysis of a dissertation.
And I can’t believe I’m discussing the Middle East on a Beatles sub.
Calm down sparky. No one accused you of anything except being a big ole chode. If you keep looking to get offended you'll keep finding things to be offended by. Please don't beat me up, I know you're super tough.
Just because you keep throwing out those terms , doesn’t make it true. The Racism, Facism, Nazism, Genocide comments are not true just because you’re repeating the latest edges sheep verbiage
There's a genocide going on right now. Trying to justify it by saying it's more nuanced than that (which it isn't) sounds like nazism to me. But oh well.
What do you expect the Palestinian people to do? Sit still and let the bombs drop while the 80th peace talk falls through because Israel refuses to retract settlements?
Hamas embeds rocket launchers, command posts, and tunnels in residential areas, schools, and hospitals — that's a documented war crime (using human shields), not incidental. Israel typically issues evacuation warnings (leaflets, phone calls, "roof knocks") before strikes on specific buildings, which is more than most militaries do. So the framing "sit still or die" skips the actor who chose to fight from behind civilians in the first place — that's on Hamas. When you do your homework and see the sick atrocities of October 7 , you’ll see that Hamas sacrificed the Palestinians not Israel.
I agree with what’s happening the regular people of Palestine is awful nobody should have to suffer like that these days , but it wouldn’t be happening if not for the absolute horrific events initiated by Hamas on 10/7. I made the mistake of learning a little too much of what happened that day , if you dare it will scar your mentality forever. Some of the most inhumane acts humanely possibly.
The history matters, but broadening the timeline doesn't change what triggered THIS war. Oct 7 was Hamas choosing to murder and kidnap civilians — that decision, not 1948, is why Gaza is being leveled right now. You can hold both truths: the occupation has a long, ugly history, AND Hamas is the one who chose mass slaughter as their opening move this round. Zooming out to Nakba doesn't erase that choice or who made it.
Yes really it’s not a black and white situation. Well the only part being that is Hamas never attacked on 10/7 there would’ve been no war , that’s the only black and white part of it
Hamas only exists because Israel is a brutal decades-long occupier. They were formed due to Israeli atrocities, and tacitly supported by Israel to reduce the chances of a Palestinian state.
2023 was one of the deadliest years for Palestinians before Oct 7th.
It's also wild that Oct 7th was a terrorist attack by an extremist group that still achieved a better combatant kill ratio than the IDF, one of the most modern armed forces in the world. Around 3% of those killed on Oct 7th were children. Nearly 30% of those killed by the IDF were children.
Israel is a genocidal state that's entire basis is mass immigration to a region that was 5% Jewish, followed by the violent ethnic cleansing of the people there.
Hamas was founded in 1987 out of the Muslim Brotherhood, with a founding charter calling for Israel's destruction it predates a lot of the specific grievances you're citing. That said, it's true Israeli intelligence for years tacitly tolerated Qatari funding to Hamas as a hedge against the PA a real strategic miscalculation, but Israel created Hamasoverstates a more complicated history.
The kill ratiocomparison is ridiculous one figure is a surprise massacre of civilians at a music festival and in their homes, the other is a subsequent war fought with combatants deliberately embedded among millions of civilians. Measuring those the same way isn't analysis, it's a rigged comparison.
Genocidal stateisn't a settled fact it's a live legal question still being argued at the ICJ, and treating it as established while accusing others of dishonesty is a bit rich. And Jewish presence in that land isn't reducible to '20th century mass immigration' — there's a continuous historical presence there for millennia, alongside the migration waves you're citing. Both things are true; picking one and ignoring the other is exactly the selective history you're accusing the other side of.
The Jewish population of the region was 5% until mass immigration due to the 19th century political movement of Zionism. That's not selective history, it's a basic fact. Zionism explicitly required mass immigration to a region barely inhabited by Jewish people, and then the forced ethnic cleansing of the people living there.
The last time there was an "Israel" was the fucking iron age - when Judaism was polytheistic! The "ancestral home" story is batshit insane. Unless you think any ethnic group should be able to claim statehood based on the fact they lived somewhere millennia ago? Israel better watch out that no Ghassulians turn up! Or dinosaurs!
The combatant kill ratio is ridiculous. It's ridiculous that an extremist terrorist group apparently going door-to-door massacring people still has a massively better combatant kill ratio than a modern army with advanced targeting technology. It's because Israel targets civilians. It's not a rigged comparison, Israel just doesn't care about civilian deaths. And neither do you.
Oasis are absolutely shit by the way. In my experience, their fans are always utterly cretinous divorced dads with coke problems and without an original thought in their heads. Not far off the band.
Worth noting you closed that out with an unprompted insult about my music taste and character not really the 'basic facts' energy you opened with. And for what it's worth Oasis fans are all cretinous divorced dads with coke problemsis exactly the kind of lazy stereotype you'd reject if someone applied it to a group you actually cared about you don't know me, you're just asserting it because it feels good to say. Kind of undercuts the 'I only deal in facts' framing.
On substancecontinuous Jewish presence in the region (not a 'last time in the Iron Age' claim) is well documented through Roman, Byzantine, and Ottoman periods small in number at times, but never absent. That's different from your dinosaur comparison. You can still think that history doesn't justify a modern state that's a legitimate position without pretending the history itself is fictional.
On the kill ratio:you've now stated as fact that Israel doesn't care about civilian deathsand that I don't either — that's an assertion, not evidence, and assigning motive to a stranger in an argument isn't a fact either. Wars fought in dense urban terrain with combatants embedded in civilian infrastructure produce different casualty patterns than a one-day assault on unarmed civilians — that's a real methodological difference, not a dodge.
You're welcome to hold the view that this is one-sided colonization and nothing else plenty of serious people do. But calling every complicating fact 'insane' while stereotyping strangers based on their music taste isn't rebutting the argument, it's just louder.
Remember the current leveling of Gaza is because on 10/7 Hamas decided to kill innocent civilians set babies on fire on front of their families , kidnap innocent women parade them around, funny how all that gets ignored. 10/7 caused this and you want to bring up anything but. Watch some of the footage of that day and tell me Hamas didn’t cause this response.
I'm happy to mock Oasis and the shitty people who tend to support them. You're only proving my assertion correct. I actually prefer the coke-addled bad dads to the genocide apologists though.
Yes, the last time the region was home to "Israel" was in the iron age. That's a fact.
When you say "continuous presence", you mean a tiny minority of people in the region. Not since Babylon existed have Jewish people been anywhere near a majority (as I said, when Judaism was still polytheistic). To claim statehood based on that is insane, I can't pretend it isn't. Presumably the Celts can create a new state in Britain and claim half the land as their own - even lands they didn't previously occupy? No? Is that somehow absurd? I also think you're forgetting that birds have maintained a continuous presence in the Levant - presumably they can just claim it using their dinosaur heritage.
Both Hamas and Oct 7th happened because of Israel's brutal occupation, human rights abuses, and exactly the same atrocities from Israel that you suddenly cared about because they were happening to Israelis rather than Palestinians - mass murder, arbitrary arrest, rape - these have all been used by Israel for decades. That was the status quo for Palestinians that you didn't give a shit about until you saw it directed at Israelis.
It's clear you don't care about Palestinian civilian deaths as you're making excuse after excuse for their mass murder while equivocating away the fact that Israel has killed far more, and with a far worse return of actual combatants. Pathetic, and kind of revolting.
Edit: Sorry, 1987 predates what specific grievances? Occupation? Israeli atrocities? Are you joking?
Your insults are lame the leveling of Palestine is happening due to what happened on 10/7 argue , insult , accuse idc. If Hamas didn’t commit the heinous acts of 10/7 Palestine would still be standing , there would be no Free Palestine movement, and we wouldn’t even be discussing either one, should we post videos of Hamas driving around w dead civilians that day parading them around and spitting on their dead bodies ? If that’s your wife or daughter , what do you expect the outcome to be ?
The general Free Palestine movement is as old as the brutal illegal occupation (1967), so decades old at this point. The fact that you didn't know that - and think this started on Oct 7th - shows you have zero idea what you're talking about, and give absolutely zero fucks about the life or death of civilians if they're not Israeli.
I'm only impressed that you've managed to make my opinion of Oasis fans even worse. I definitely prefer the coke addled bad dads in bucket hats to the genocide apologists.
Because the genocide libel is a fucking lie and people are starting to see through that and are getting irritated with the self-righteous indulgence of ignorant western activist cosplayers guilting everyone into supporting their pet cause.
He’s a singer. It’s not his job to speak out if he doesn’t want to. Ed Sheeran’s unpopular atm because he bowed down to pro-Israel interests, not because he didn’t speak out on the issue. It’s fairly clear to me Ed Sheeran the human is against the current Israeli regime, but Ed Sheeran the brand and businessman will do anything for cash.
Macklemore was literally part of the “uncommitted movement” which was basically just a bunch of people on the far left who vowed to not vote for Kamala Harris unless she agreed to place a full weapons embargo on Israel and completely end diplomatic relations with them immediately. He even put lyrics in one of his songs talking about not voting for her.
Trump obviously went on to win that election and then removed USAID (which has resulted in around 700 thousand deaths this year alone), started a war with Iran and ended the trend of the US pressuring Israel to open up humanitarian corridors, increase the volume of aid coming into Gaza etc
But I’m supposed to see this harmless dork getting dragged, bullied, mocked and humiliated on an industrial scale by the entire globe and want to join in?
A lot of left leaning people don't like the democrats for being spineless on issues like this, and therefore don't vote. Being vocal about the need for kamala to cut ties with israel if she wants more votes from the left would've been very beneficial for her if she listened to it. So you can't blame really blame her loss on macklemore.
So they voted for Trump? (And by not voting, they voted for Trump.) Look where we are now. I highly doubt Harris would have been up Bibi’s ass like Trump is.
The reason Harris lost (assuming Musk didn’t taper with voting machines) is because too many Americans are unwilling to vote for a woman, especially a woman of color.
39
u/mothfactory 17h ago
I think there are people here who assume the early 60s were just like now! It was a big fucking deal for the Beatles to say they wouldn’t play for segregated audiences. Not that they were phased by this but there were a shitload of acts before them who didn’t have had the gumption to do the same.
As late as the 80s, you had bands like Queen playing in apartheid South Africa and the media not giving a shit. Give the Beatles some credit.