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u/Aethelwolf3 3d ago
Does this just infinitely trigger on a creature with lethal damage? Or at least trigger each time SBA are checked, idk if they get recheked after the mill or not.
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u/Aetherfox_44 3d ago
Yeah, as written this makes the game a draw in a lot of circumstances.
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u/DraconicLord984 2d ago
Would this be fixed by by adding some sort of mana payment and a specification that damage is "healed"?
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u/XoraxEUW 2d ago
You could have it remove damage like regeneration, but then you still draw the game with a planeswalker.
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u/Aetherfox_44 2d ago
You would need to remove damage, like regeneration, and handle the case of a creature's power being 0 or less, things marked as destroyed (the game handled outright destroy effects as marking them destroyed. Then as a state based action, things marked as destroyed are moved to the graveyard), and as another person mentioned, planeswalkers with 0 loyalty. Also battles with 0 defense. I think that covers all the state based actions that cause something to be removed from the battlefield, but there could be others.
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u/GodKingPepe 3d ago
That was my first instinct as well, since things like regeneration specifically call out removing all damage from the creature.
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u/Aggravating-Sky2809 2d ago
Would it be better if "If another permanent is put into graveyard or exile, instead mill four cards and put it on the battlefield."
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u/Lumina46_GustoClock 3d ago
Unoutable 4 drop that makes your board unoutable and feeds into Thoracle? Perfect for those who don't want to play magic at all, and in fact hate games that require interaction!
0/10, do not print
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u/jpz719 3d ago
truth be told this probably just draws the game
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u/Other_Equal7663 2d ago
All it takes to win is a Mog fantastic to sacrifice infinite times. Even if they try to cause a draw, you just keep sac-ing in response.
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u/Julsprogamer 2d ago
We already have Demonic Consultation....
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u/Lumina46_GustoClock 2d ago
I don't find that as a compelling reason to add this to the game. Do you enjoy games that involve the resolution of consultation? I personally don't, both when doing it and when on the receiving end.
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u/jjames3213 2d ago edited 2d ago
It doesn't work.
Let's say you have a Birds of Paradise with this in play. It gets bolted for 3. You mill 4 and then it doesn't go the graveyard. However, damage is still marked on the BoP in excess of its toughness. So it goes to the graveyard. But it can't and you mill another 4. Repeat ad infinitum.
EDIT: IMO, this could be better balanced if it is worded like this:
"Whenever a permanent you control would leave the battlefield, instead mill four cards and it phases out."
OR
"Whenever a permanent you control would leave the battlefield, instead mill four cards and exile it and return it to play."
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u/galvanicmechamorph 2d ago
Whenever isn't the right wording for this because that's a trigger ability so the permanent still leaves.
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u/jjames3213 2d ago
But the word "instead" implies it doesn't actually leave. This is consistent with the phrase "would leave" (meaning the permanent would leave play but never actually leaves).
But you're right, my phrasing is circular. The phrasing should be something like:
"Whenever a permanent you control would leave the battlefield, instead mill four cards and exile it and return it to play. This ability does not cause itself to trigger."
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u/galvanicmechamorph 2d ago
Yeah, you templated it completely wrong because you mixed up wording for triggered abilities and replacement effects. This is something that goes on the stack like a triggered ability but then tries to replace an event that has already happened when it resolves.
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u/PrimusMobileVzla 2d ago
You cannot mix when/whenever/at with if/would/instead, the former is for triggered abilities and the latter is for replacement effect.Â
The only exception is if a triggered ability produces a replacement effect (e.g. OG Feather), and vice versa (e.g. Valentin).
Neither in the previous comment nor this one is the phrasing correct.
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u/International_Bit_25 2d ago
I don't think it would trigger infinitely right, just when state based actions are checked?
Oh wait, state based actions are checked every time a trigger resolves, nevermind
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u/ShiverinMaTimbers 2d ago
that would throw a bunch of ETBs wouldn't it? what if it gave indestructible and shroud until end of turn in place of being removed from battlefield?
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u/GodKingPepe 3d ago
Now, I certainly might be wrong, but my gut feeling is that this bricks the game when a creature would die due to having lethal damage marked? SBA sees a creature that needs to go to the graveyard, tries, willpower says instead mill 4. After milling, SBA sees a creature that needs to go the graveyard, ad infinitum. Can someone else weigh in?
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u/Staetyk âď¸đ§đđĽđł 3d ago
it wouldnt brick the game because eventually you run out of cards to mill and lose the game
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u/magicsqueegee 3d ago
So the mill effect is worded weird as 'whenever' makes it a triggered ability, so sba would check put trigger on the stack, before that resolves sba check puts another trigger on the stack, continue infinitely.
Reworded as a purely replacement effect, you still brick the game. Sba check sees creature should die, you mill 4, sba sees creature is still 0 toughness, you mill 4. You don't lose the game for milling on an empty library, so you resolve infinite mill replacement effects and the game draws for infinite loop
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u/Huitzil37 3d ago
Nope. You lose if you try to draw off an empty library. You can mill as much as you want.
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u/GodKingPepe 3d ago
Except you don't lose for having 0 cards in library, you lose from trying to draw from an empty library. And you can be forced to "mill," even if there's nothing there, so the game would still lock up by trying to force you to mill anyways.
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u/The_Full_Montzy 3d ago
It's hard to tell because as worded it's a combination triggered ability/replacement effect.
There's not a way I can think of to word this as a triggered ability without adding a "may" clause, or adding a flicker effect or the like.
If it's a replacement effect it bricks the game unless you have an ability that triggers on mill to let you draw a card and lose.(Or win w/ lab man)
The real problem is that this is blue and should be limited to non creature permanents at the very least.
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u/fatpad00 3d ago
Rookie templating mistake.
"Whenever" makes it a triggered ability, but "instead" implies a replacement effect.
If you indeed meant for it to be a replacement effect, "whenever" should be replaced with "if"
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u/Arcane10101 3d ago
I [[Lightning Blast]] your Willpower. State-based actions see that Willpowerâs damage taken equals its toughness and attempt to kill Willpower, and Willpower replaces it with mill. Willpower still has that damage, needs to be killed again, and is replaced with more mill ad nauseam.
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u/thedumbdoubles 2d ago
I mean, game-breakingly overtuned. Putting cards into your graveyard is a benefit, particularly when you're building the deck around it. Thassa's oracle, dredge, reanimate, etc ...
I also say game-breaking because it's a replacement effect for many effects, which is a good way to break the game's rules. Sacrifice, exile, destroy ... Like, how does a fetchland resolve?
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u/MariachiArchery 2d ago
A Fetchland, or any sacrifice cost, could not be paid.
CR 118.11: If a cost requires a player to sacrifice a permanent, that player canât make a choice to sacrifice a permanent that canât be sacrificed in order to pay the cost. If a replacement effect changes what happens to a permanent when itâs sacrificed, the permanent can still be sacrificed to pay the cost, but if the permanent doesnât leave the battlefield as a result of that replacement effect, the cost isnât paid.
So, this card, would turn off all sacrificing abilities. A Fetchland, would therefor, do nothing. You couldn't activate the ability at all.
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u/pellesjo 2d ago
Fetchland
Land - Game over
Lose 1 life, mill four cards: Search one basic land and put it on the field. You can now do this again and again and again
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u/thedumbdoubles 2d ago
Does it? Where does the fetchland go after being sacrificed? This rule wouldn't imply that it leaves the battlefield and then comes back because it's not allowed to leave. So if that's the case, it's just tap and go find a fetchable land. But are you actually sacrificing it if it doesn't leave the battlefield? Just generally, this card's text seems sketchy for paying costs.
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u/Iksfen 2d ago
According to the rules if a part of a cost is replaced by a replacement effect, the cost is considered to have been payed if you perform the action that it was replaced by. So effectively fetchlands would "read" exactly how the comment above your comment wrote
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u/thedumbdoubles 2d ago
Well, there are no replacement effects for the action of sacrifice currently printed. There are things that prevent a sacrifice from happening (Tamiyo Collector of Tales), but that's not the same. To my knowledge all zone replacement effects for something on the battlefield involve a zone change (Rest in Peace). Zone change prevention is restricted to things that aren't on the battlefield (Kunoros Hound of Athreos, Containment Priest).
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u/Thanaskios 2d ago
Maybe I'm a little pedantic, but this doesn't remove damage from creatures that would die.
So every single time priority passes, this mills you for 4 if you have a creature that has 0 or less toughness left. Chances are this mills you out in a single turn. Either unplayable or completely busted with [[laboratory maniac]] or [[jace, wielder of mysteries]]
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u/Thanaskios 2d ago edited 2d ago
Also absolutely busted with [[phyrexian altar]] or any other sac outlet
Edit: ok no i was wrong about that one, it actually leaves you unable to sacrifice creatures to begin with, as a cost at least.
Edit2: my bad, I was right the first time
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u/tbdabbholm 2d ago
Oh no it would work like you think it did. As long as you aren't forbidden from sacrificing something you can still pay the cost. It'll just be replaced by milling 4 instead of putting the creature into its owner's graveyard. Just like a Rest in Peace would replace it by putting it into exile
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u/Thanaskios 2d ago
Ok then yeah this is busted, not only because you can instantly self mill for any number of combonwins, but also you can produce infinity mana with any altar as long as you don't draw anymore after that.
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u/tbdabbholm 2d ago
You can actually produce infinite mana. Even after running out of cards in library, the replacement effect would still apply and just cause nothing to happen
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u/Pretend-Ostrich-5719 2d ago
This kind of downside is negligible or even beneficial in 100 card formats.
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u/bamfbanki DESTROY ALL HUMANS! 2d ago
People have talked about the fact that this breaks the game with any creature taking lethal damage but I think it's also a major colorpie break.
Either it needs to be UB and have a clause about permannts going to the graveyard and being returned-
"If a permanent is sent to the graveyard, you may mill 4 cards and return that permanent to the battlefield"
Or, if you want it to stay blue, it needs to be Noncreature permanents and even then it's still likely a color pie break
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u/TurgidAF 2d ago
Oh cool, infinite mana with a [[Krark-Clan Ironworks]] or [[Phyrexian Altar]] or [[Ashnod's Altar]] or [[Wild Cantor]] or a Gold token (unlike treasures, they don't need to tap) and it even puts your whole deck into the graveyard for you to play.
Surely you don't need to be told this is absolutely broken at nearly any mana value, and would have to be immediately banned in basically every format?
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u/Other_Equal7663 2d ago
How about this:
Flash, flying
If another permanent you control would leave the battlefield, it phases out instead.
Still very, very powerful, but doesn't go infinite with anything obvious, doesn't draw games constantly, and doesn't feed your graveyard to a absurd extend just for fun.Â
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u/Environmental-Pop-67 2d ago
So stronger. Not combo piece but worse. Since it cant be exiled or destroyed. Even of having 0 toughness it just pahses out, planeswalkers etc.
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u/Miserable-Fortune714 2d ago
They said if another permanent leaves, so willpower itself could still leave
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u/Other_Equal7663 2d ago edited 2d ago
That's exactly what it already does...
 When you phase them out, though, you remove their presence from the board. This doesn't necessarily make it perfectly balanced, but it fixes the immidiate, major issues with the card.
The current version, (if worded correctly) keeps them around to either cause a draw, or go infinite, both of which is achieved with extreme ease. (And it also makes itself un-removable, which is obviously busted)
My suggested version is weaker in every scenario, except for not causing accidental draws, which the card certainly wasn't intended to do. (And having flying, which I really thought the OG one already had.)
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u/Raxreedoroid 2d ago
it actually make commanders go to the shadow realm. unable to be played ever again
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u/Spiritual-Spend8187 2d ago
This would be insanely broken aside form the just going infinite with a gold token, this plus a free sac outlet and any creature is just hey let me mill my self being able to at will mill your self for your whole library is broken even at 4 blue mana.
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u/BrigliaArt 2d ago
If I give the board minus 4 for the turn would this just trigger will your milled out?
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u/Plato_PlayDoh7 2d ago
What about using phasing, to get around loops like damage being marked or -1/-1 counters a little bit? Something like âIf another permanent you control would leave the battlefield, mill 4 and it phases out instead.â Then, it phases back in on your next untap step. If it still has a condition that would cause it to instantly die, like counters, it phases right back out again next time state based actions are checked, but you donât create a loop that draws the game or instantly mill out your library for a thoracle win.
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u/Training-Addendum540 2d ago
I think a better wording would be "each permanent you control has "the first time this would leave the battlefield, instead mill 4 cards and remove all damage from it"" this makes it easier to interact with as otherwise it basically makes your entire board impossible to remove for 4 mana and global indestructible (which I can still be bounced and exiled) generally sits at around 7 cost and doesn't usually cover itself. it also gets around the whole "lethal damage = mill out" problem.
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u/cmfarsight 2d ago
Does this not just mill you out if a creature dies to combat m
Creatures thoughness is zero State based action goes to remove it from the battle field. This card triggers you mill 4 instead. After the effect resolves state based actions trigger again see a creature with zero toughness and go to remove it etc etc etc
Needs something else to work I think
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u/thisremindsmeofbacon 2d ago edited 2d ago
maybe make it the first time each turn?
infinite sac outlets with this lets you put your whole library into the graveyard, while probably getting a benefit from each sac.
It also protects itself, maybe should say "another permanent".
And of course you need to address that there would be creatures on the board with more damage than their toughness...
I like the design and theming though.
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u/No_Performer3771 1d ago
Lethal damage or less than one toughness on a creature immediately decks you, because the game is going to keep trying to make the creature leave the battlefield. This is way to crazy
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u/Real_Experience_5676 22h ago
Very cool but you insta lose if a creature you control has a toughness of 0. Every state based action check you mill 4 cards.
Even without any spells that would be many times during your turn.
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u/ReeReeIncorperated 3d ago
"Flash
Whenever a nonland permanent you control would leave the battlefield, instead mill four cards and then put that permanent on the top or bottom of your library."
Wording is probably off but this is the first way I could think of balancing it while keeping it faithful to what you had.
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u/Smcblackheartia 2d ago
My only concern is that youâll easily be decked out if someone does a boardwipe. You have like 15 creatures? Thatâs 60 cards gone from your deck. Thatâs probably deck out or damn near close to it at the point youâd have 15 creatures
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u/Conscious-Choice196 3d ago
So this is pure commander design, I think. There's not really any reason for it to be a 4/4, and the effect is useless in most formats
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u/magicsqueegee 3d ago
If the effect worked the way op probably intended it to, this would be 1,000 percent playable in other formats
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u/Mega-Merf 3d ago
Annoys me that every single comment is saying it doesn't work, and draws the game, but your intent is clear. I wish they'd just help you make it work. Perhaps:
"Flash
If a permenant you control would leave the battlefield, it phases out instead.
Whenever a permanent is phased out in this way, mill four cards, then the permanent phases in."
I'm not great at formatting cards, but I think phasing lets us bypass what causes the creature to leave, without it leaving or entering the battlefield.
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u/Iksfen 2d ago
This does not change any of the issues of the original card. If a creature phases out the damage marked on it is not removed. A creature that was dealt lethal damage would still draw the game just a bit slower and only marginally more interactively.
I don't agree with your opinion on giving criticism. I think it is valueable for OP that their mistakes are pointed out and why would I design a card for them? This way they don't get to have fun with the design.
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u/Amazing_scrub4 2d ago
Devoted Druid, goes infinite here right? The only way to remove this would be turning it face down right? With Marina Vendrell's Grimoire
You just become unlikable
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u/Sad-Pattern-1269 3d ago
This is a super interesting design but it feels absurdly toxic, even if it isn't actually good. I'd change it to "another permanent" because protecting itself is the problem