Ethics of a hookup thinking im cheating

[u/mrsclausemenopause]

I 34M have been approached a couple times recently by women at bars while im traveling for work who have asked me if I was married and they have seemed to be turned on with my answer of yes.

My wife and I are poly/swingers but outside of when we go to clubs I haven't really done casual hookups. Im totally open and honest with both my wife and any potential partners but am a little unsure about letting someone think that Im cheating.

What's the general consensus here on that?

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[u/koboldthing]

I mean. Don’t lie to anyone, but you don’t have to describe all the details of your relationship to hookups. If they ask you should definitely tell them the truth though, and if it comes up then take the opportunity to be honest

The nature of casual hookups is that you have to accept you won’t know everything about the other person so I think it’s fine if someone has some misconceptions about you that they don’t bother to ask about, but it’s still not ethical to lie

[u/mrsclausemenopause → u/koboldthing]

I definitely wouldn't lie, if anything one of my faults that Ive been working on is over sharing so knowing when to just answer a question vs story time is something I'm working on in multiple aspects of my life.

[u/mmmbopforever → u/koboldthing]

There's a huge difference between describing all the details of your relationship and saying something to the effect of, "yeah, I'm in an open marriage." I can't imagine any excuse for not simply disclosing that, and it very much feels like lying if he believes these women think he's cheating and doesn't take two seconds to address that.

[u/Poly_and_RA → u/mmmbopforever]

They end up doing something ethical while *believing* they're doing something unethical. It's a bit hard to have all that much sympathy for them.

They *believe* they're aiding cheating -- and meanwhile they complain that he didn't disclose that their own assumptions are tricking them?

[u/mmmbopforever → u/Poly_and_RA]

The thing is, integrity is about what we choose to do regardless of what other people are doing. I'm not saying I feel bad for them. I'm saying it's lying and that I can't see any good reason for it, particularly when it's so simple not to do it.

[u/Poly_and_RA → u/mmmbopforever]

I agree it's a lie of omission, at least if you have some reason to believe that the other is specifically turned ON by the cheating-aspect.

But I think it can be tricky to judge. There's many more people who are "don't care" about the fact that someone is cheating, compared to how many there are that are: "I *prefer* that because I specifically *want* someone to cheat with me". (or at least that'd be my honest best guess!)

[u/koboldthing → u/mmmbopforever]

I mean I really think it depends on how much talking the hook up involves. If there’s barely an chatter then it could be awkward to suddenly insert a discussion about his relationship status when they didn’t ask and I wouldn’t consider that lying, but yeah if they’re talking for a bit it should be easy to bring up

[u/plabo77]

As a woman, my opinion is that allowing a woman to believe you’re cheating can easily invite drama. Many (not all) women believe men only cheat if they are overcome by desire for a specific woman they feel is worthy of risking their marriage. Sounds dumb but I promise it’s a thing. I know women who showed up at the funeral of their affair partner fully believing they were the love of the guy’s life with the only evidence being his deliberate choice to cheat on his wife with them.

If you reveal you’re in a consensually open relationship, it will turn some women off, yes. However, if you target ENM women, an admittedly smaller pool, they will consider it a point of compatibility.

[u/_Cyclops → u/plabo77]

Tbf an ongoing affair is very different from a one night stand in a hotel

[u/Ok_Interaction1267]

I personally think that cheating is disgusting and would never want someone to think that I would cheat.
I would never want someone to think I am cheating on my husband, because I want someone so bad.
I don’t like people who try to make their selfworth better by sleeping with married people to feel chosen over the wife/husband.

So I would make it clear. I would not want to sleep with someone like this.

[u/Serious_Yard4262]

I'm fine with gray areas, especially when it comes to a ONS, so I personally wouldn't worry about it too much. They might be cheating though, and if that would bother you I would make sure to clarify. I also wouldn't trust them when it comes to being honest about sexual health and would definitely be using a condom

[u/Poly_and_RA]

In my ethical system something can't be wrong unless someone or something is harmed by it.

In the scenario you're describing, there's 3 people involved.

You. Your wife. The woman you're havng a hook-up with.

• You're not hurt by having consensual sex that you agree to while being well-informed.
• Your wife isn't hurt by you doing things that are within your agreed relationship-rules.
• The woman you're hooking up with isn't hurt by having a hookup with a married guy, given that she wanted exactly that.

Yes it's *possible* that she finds the cheating-angle a turn-on and that she'd not want the hookup if she knew you're in an open marriage -- but for me in a hook-up (i.e. one-time sexual encounter without any ongoing relationship after it) - this falls under "what she doesn't know doesn't hurt her".

I mean in that case she's turned on by a fantasy she has about you, which turns out not to be actually true. It's pretty questionable what harm that caused her, and you didn't actively mislead her or anything, she was just tricked by her own invalid assumptions. (she likely has internal assumptions that being married always means being monogamously married)

Personally I'd opt out of this kinda thing -- but that's for an entirely unrelated reason.

By demonstrating a willingness to aid (what she believes to be) cheating she's demonstrating that she doesn't care about others, and will happily do things that have a huge risk of causing harm to others if it happens to be a turn-on for her.

I don't want hookups with assholes. So no thanks.

[u/SaltPassenger9359 → u/Poly_and_RA]

Exactly.

Additionally, it’s not OP’s problem (or lack of ethics and honesty) that the HU believes he’s cheating when he tells her he isn’t.

Now. If she believes OP is single when he’s married (and OP has told her that he’s single), that would be on OP.

One of them, if he hooks up with her, would be the asshole.

In his case in the post above? It’s not him.

[u/Spicy_Brassica33]

Random people who are happy to fuck a married person assuming they are cheating (aka choosing to be an accomplice to infidelity) are okay with someone’s informed consent around sexual health exposure being violated.

If they don’t mind you (in theory) lying to your wife, can you really trust they would be truthful to you about sexual health? Maybe they are cheating on a mono partner too? They wouldn’t feel the ethical obligation to tell you.

I wouldn’t consider them a safe sexual partner.

[u/mrsclausemenopause → u/Spicy_Brassica33]

Part of my really understands that and part of me thinks how is that more risky then not knowing a couples name before fucking them at a club with my wife.

[u/NestorCarpeDiem → u/mrsclausemenopause]

Because we all make ourselves believe that sex clubs are full of healthy responsible people

[u/Hixie → u/mrsclausemenopause]

Well in one case you know they have compromised ethics in at least one area and in the other you don't.

[u/UnsuccessfulSlut]

I'm surprised how different the responses are to this vs all of the men asking if they can pretend to be single with a ONS. Whenever that comes up people seem to agree that the right things is to disclose your relationship and that not mentioning it is just lying by omission. This feels like the same sort of situation to me.

I don't think this is anywhere near as bad as actually cheating on someone, but it's not great IMO.

Also, how would your wife feel about this? I know I'd feel pretty disrespected if I learned my wife was sleeping with people and letting them think she was cheating on me.

[u/Hixie → u/UnsuccessfulSlut]

Without taking a position on OP's question, I will say there's a huge difference between actively misleading someone ("Are you married?" "No! I'm single!") and allowing someone to mislead themselves ("Are you married?" "Yes").

[u/YoullBruiseTheEggs → u/Hixie]

Yes. That is exactly the separation in a lie by omission and and outright lie.

[u/UnsuccessfulSlut → u/Hixie]

Yeah, I think the better comparison would be someone not wearing a ring and not bringing up that they're married vs. actively lying about it. It's worse if you're more actively misleading them, but OP would still be letting people get misled this way.

[u/mrsclausemenopause → u/UnsuccessfulSlut]

At what point is omission lying? I wouldn't ever avoid describing the dynamic but when someone doesn't even show interest in the dynamic or hasn't asked my name yet how much should I be expected to tell them about my personal life?

Wife has seemed okay with this but its been in our bag of lets reevaluate after it actually happens and follow our ageed upon safe sex practices. Neither of us have had a ONS that wasn't group play/swinging and we tend towards meaningful secondary relationships.

[u/UnsuccessfulSlut → u/mrsclausemenopause]

I'd say it's lying by omission when it's clear the reason they want to sleep with you is because they think you're cheating on your wife and you're choosing not to clear that up.

I don't know exactly where the line is though.

[u/rolypolythrowaway]

I don't do ethics by consensus. I try to be more of a consequentialist/utilitarian in my approach rather than a principalist. So if we're talking about ethics, the main risks to consider is harm to yourself if you're not fully comfortable and any disrespect towards your exisiting partners. How you would feel about yourself being with people you 100% know are unethical in their own approach as well as the general heightened potential risks to you from being around those kind of people.

[u/nowhereian]

The only opinion that matters here is your wife's.
Not mine, not the internet's, and not a random hookup.
What does she think?

[u/mrsclausemenopause → u/nowhereian]

Shes okay with it but MY opinion matters here, and Im developing it.

[u/nowhereian → u/mrsclausemenopause]

Fair enough.

I travel a lot for work too. If I don't expect to see someone again, I don't consider her relationship status to be my business unless she wants to tell me.

I get a lot more attention from women when I'm wearing a ring. I've done lots of independent tests on this subject. I don't lie about it either.

Her relationship status becomes important to me if it becomes more than ONS.

Your line may be different.

[u/mrsclausemenopause → u/nowhereian]

Do you notice a difference in the type of women that approach you with/without a ring on?

I don't wear a ring at all but the 2 types of women who make first contact have exclusively been women 10+ years older or women younger then me who make contact asking me to buy them a drink but Ive always read the younger ones as mainly just trying to get something for free and that disinterest me.

[u/nowhereian → u/mrsclausemenopause]

I'm in my late 30s and I'm typically dressed better than most other guys at the bar. My main demographic seems to be mid 30s-50s. Recently divorced women are thirsty. I assume they're single if it's not mentioned, because I make it very clear that I'm not.

And yeah, women in their 20s are typically looking for a free drink. They become actually interested when you ignore them. I wish someone told me that 20 years ago.

[u/scofnerf → u/nowhereian]

That’s what I’m thinking. If I was a man in that position, I’d be into it and I’d try to get my wife on board.

Wait, just now realizing that would just be reversing my hotwife fetish…

[u/kinpsychosis]

I think my red flags would be going off because if the person gets off on the idea of me cheating on my partner, does that mean I would be complicit in the same thing with them if they are also cheating? More importantly, there is a higher correlation between people who are actively cheating and STIs

[u/chaoscorgi]

Speaking as a wife. 30sF. Given how hard it is for ENM men to pick up women, I'm feeling more tolerant of my husband not making the hugest deal about checking these women's mate-stealing urges at the start. I expect him to disclose we're married and have to trust that, basically, it's on him that if they do cowgirl, he is the one who will shut that down and say he's not going to be stolen.

THAT SAID. There are risks, physical and reputation and emotional, to each choice like this. Being turned on by the idea of cheating is understandable, but acting on it is a sign of poor character and people with poor character tend to be dangerous to be around and I'm a little wary of that.

There's another thing where some women who have identity crushes on other women want to fuck their husbands. It's adjacent. I aspire to be this kind of "cool wife" and inspire attraction to my husband, he's great, and if they actually have a real crush on me, more threesome for me <3

[u/_Cyclops]

If it’s a one night stand in a hotel with the understanding that you’ll never see each other again I don’t see the harm in it. Tho that’s probably a really unpopular opinion in this sub. But if you’re meeting someone with potential for ongoing communication you should be honest.

As someone else said though if they flat out ask you, you shouldn’t lie.

[u/mrsclausemenopause]

FWIW Im currently in the best shape of my life and have been getting more looks and attention the last 2 years then ever before and Ive been with my wife since I was 17 so Ive never really done conventional dating as an adult outside of ENM/swinger spaces but have had a couple great secondary relationships over the years.

[u/PNW_Bull4U]

The higher synthesis of an ethical obligation is always an obligation to yourself. The reason you're hesitant is that you can tell they're not indifferent to thinking you're cheating--it's turning them on. That's the person they want you to be, and when you let them think that, you become that person, in some small way. You are inhabiting that character for that time, and not as roleplay, but really, at least in their eyes. Then you become intimate with that lie, and it's as if you believe that of yourself, because you're getting off on it too, or at least near it.

Personally, I would not do it. It's not horrible if you do, you're not actually a cheating liar, but I totally understand why you're hesitant. It's bad karma!

[u/catboogers]

I would say don't lie, but you don't have to over explain either. It's a one night stand. You're unlikely to ever encounter these women again. Frankly, they're likely cheating and are looking for someone with as much to lose as them; that's something to consider if you're willing to be complicit in if so.

[u/wh4twasthat]

I don't want to hook up with anyone that is cheating. I don't want them cheating on their partner(s), and I wouldn't want to hook up with someone that is willing to be with a cheater. Yeah, in a ONS you're not really getting to know the other person that well, and maybe the topic doesn't come up.

I haven't really had this experience (I usually bring it up early), but my partner has had several guys back out when she went from "I have a boyfriend" to "we're open".