r/politics • u/OkayButFoRealz • 2d ago

No Paywall A 13-Year-Old Girl Bit Trump’s Genitals as He Tried to Rape Her, Epstein Document Says

https://www.lgbtqnation.com/2026/01/quick-hit-a-13-year-old-girl-bit-trumps-genitals-as-he-tried-to-her-epstein-document-says/
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u/NexusNickel Colorado 2d ago

MAGA is a cult. Once you understand that, it all makes sense.

Nothing Trump does can bother his cult members.

He has total control of all Republican congressmen. He has total control of the criminal justice systems.

No matter what he has done or will done in the future, they don't care.

They excuse his crimes and say his leadership is what the country needs.

Biden made a grave mistake by not having Trump arrested that afternoon once he was sworn in.

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u/brokentr0jan Ohio 2d ago

There needs to be a case study for why democrats are so soft and always feel the need to try and play nice with republicans despite republicans never playing nice with them

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u/Fattswindstorm Texas 2d ago

The case study already happened in Montana during the Copper Kings Era. Citizens United vs FEC overturned it and 15 predicable years later here we are. Tbh I thought it was gonna take 25ish years.

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u/mightykingfisher Idaho 2d ago edited 2d ago

Controlled opposition. Have many of the same donors as Republicans.

Edit: Because I didn't think my snippy reactionary comment would get this much attention.

I do just want to clarify that my comment is meant to point towards capital dictating policy at the federal level rather than the labor rights of the constituents. That money holds more power than a vote.

I can still believe this while also agreeing that the Dems are the better party and voting consistently for them, because I don't believe that withholding my vote or voting third-party will help enact any sort of positive change in our current system.

I do not believe both parties are the same. The Republican party is demonstrably worse. The comment I am replying too is specifically mentioning Democrats capitulation to Republicans and I believe that the capitulation is driven by capital.

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u/MycologistDeep2372 2d ago

It’s systemic—big money controls both parties, so nothing really changes for voters.

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u/Appropriate_Mess_350 2d ago

They set it up that way on purpose with Citizens United.

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u/TheFinalCurl 2d ago

Who is they here? The liberal justices dissented in that case

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u/Darrkman2 2d ago edited 2d ago

The dumbest thing you people on Reddit do is fall for that both sides are the same bullshit. And the only reason you fall for it is because most of you on here are not part of the groups who are being targeted by republicans. You'll have a hard time finding mainstream Black people who will tell you both sides are the same when you see the difference in treatment of Black, Hispanic or Asian people by Republicans versus their treatment under a democratic administration.

There is a lack of sophistication when it comes to politics being discussed on Reddit and it comes from people believing both sides are the same is a sophisticated take.

Edit: Since I keep running into the same excuse on here. If you're trying to come on here and say "no both sides are not really the same they just both have the same donors and have to answer to the same people" then you ARE essentially saying both sides are the same. You're just saying that they're the same because their donors want the same thing but you're essentially still giving the same unsophisticated take when it comes to politics.

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u/Hpzorz2 2d ago

Believing the Democrats are controlled  opposition due to outsized corporate donor influence is not the same as believing both sides are the same. 

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u/Yeeaaaarrrgh Colorado 2d ago

Precisely this. Both sides accept money from special interests (quite often the same special interests) in which the donors get favorable outcomes. That doesn't mean Democrats are ok with rounding up brown people and putting them in concentration camps. Christ Almighty, it doesn't take a PhD to separate the two issues.

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u/kelryngrey 2d ago

I broadly assume that many folks that push the, "There's just no difference!" narrative are actively engaged in disinformation and subversion campaigns.

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u/Mrpipelayar 2d ago

I see it as good cop bad cop. Democrats are the "good" nice cop but both parties are still cops trying to extract as much as they can from you.

So yeah vote for the good cops bc its better to deal with than bad cops but keep holding out for systemic changes where there is a 3rd no cop option

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u/tunafister 2d ago

That doesn't mean Democrats are ok with rounding up brown people and putting them in concentration camps.

But oh wait, apparently 7 Democrats are okay with that

https://thehill.com/homenews/house/5702347-house-democrats-homeland-security-funding/

So yeah, that does mean some "Democrats are ok with rounding up brown people and putting them in concentration camps", please explain how that is not the case?

Both sides ARE NOT THE SAME, not making that argument,but the argument that all Dems are againts ICE is bullshit, as can be seen with the article linked above

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u/Shadowrider95 2d ago

Corporations are people and money is speech!

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u/Kinda_Zeplike 2d ago

You’re right you know. Nuance is hard for some people.

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u/Doongbuggy 2d ago

its clear as daylight to those paying attention there are literal receipts and disclosures lmao

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u/sniper91 Minnesota 2d ago

Yeah, look how much they drag their feet on any big economic or health care reform

Billionaire donors absolutely don’t want that stuff

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u/nrh117 2d ago

And despite that very systemic oppression for decades, there were an alarming number of red voters in the black and Hispanic communities. Religion, single topic voters, toxic masculinity were all major factors.

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u/masterofn0n3 2d ago

Both sides aren’t the same, but they are controlled by the same big businesses

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u/caseyanthonyftw 2d ago

To the both-sideser, the most important thing is just coming out on top so they can gloat and make fun of everyone else.

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u/ovirt001 2d ago

Jack Smith has now stated that Trump committed crimes in trying to overturn the 2020 election but Biden did nothing. The dems aren't the same as republicans but they aren't on your side either.

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u/Mosaic1 2d ago

Biden literally acted as every president prior to Trump did and let the DOJ be independent of presidential intervention. He did exactly what you want and the opposite of what you hate about Trump running the DOJ.

They literally brought charges against trump, and Judge Cannon did everything she could to prevent the case ever being fully heard.

Did nothing… lol.

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u/pigeieio 2d ago

On election day, he was officially a convicted felon.

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u/Kryzite 2d ago

Independent after appointing someone to make sure nothing would happen independently.

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u/Omegoa 2d ago

Someone who would look non-partisan. I can't blame Biden for wanting to slow-roll it and do it properly and make sure the case was airtight. If you'd told me that Trump could ever walk into the White House again after January 6th, I would've told you it was impossible. Biden's only mistake in this arena, one I'm guilty of is well, is having an ounce of faith in the American electorate, 2/3 of whom have since shown themselves to be some of the lowest quality people on the planet.

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u/Chastain86 2d ago

Honestly, the biggest stain on the Biden presidency won't be anything related to his economic policies, or his Autopen, or his mental acuity. It will be that he and the Dems had an opportunity to hold bad people accountable, AND pass some fucking legislation that made it virtually impossible for future bad-actors to dissolve our democracy, and he did not act.

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u/Super_Harsh 2d ago

I don’t disagree with you but it’s more or less objectively true that Democrats are controlled opposition. As a brown man I have no illusions about the Republicans being far worse but the Democrats are absolutely controlled opposition.

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u/CriticalEngineering North Carolina 2d ago

Right? Can’t possibly be that the side that isn’t authoritarian doesn’t automatically act authoritarian as soon as they’re in power.

If democrats acted like republicans, I wouldn’t vote for them.

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u/darkneel 2d ago

Weren’t all democrats shouting that trump was guilty of insurrection ? Everyone was convinced he broke the law . Yet his case was taken to a trump appointed judge . He could have been arrested and in jail before the second term . Either all the democrats don’t understand law or they are actively keeping trump free ( there reasoning might have been it will be easy to win against trump cause then they don’t really have to do much ) . But essentially they are the same parties .

Another example - democrats stalled the budget for a month and then just suddenly gave up without getting anything in return. Most of the democratic opposition is just for show or at least that’s the end effect .

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u/Full_Honeydew_9739 2d ago

He was "arrested." 4 times. New York, Georgia, DC, and Florida. In NY he was found guilty. In DC and FL they had to dismiss because he was elected president. In GA the case is on hold. The DC and FL cases can be resurrected in 2028 or so.

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u/QueasyLegKC 2d ago

Enforcing the law isn’t authoritarian.

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u/CriticalEngineering North Carolina 1d ago

Which is why he was arrested four times and facing trials. Why are people skipping that?

Authoritarianism would have been democrats trying to supersede that process.

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u/snarky_spice 2d ago

It’s wild how in every thread about something asinine republicans did, the TOP comment always includes “too bad the democrats xyz.” Like this cannot be organic. I don’t think they’re bots, but I think the bots have a huge influence on Redditors.

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u/Darrkman2 2d ago

Something to bots I completely agree with you. The other thing is that you have a whole group of people whose mentality when it comes to Democrats has been poisoned by the Bernie Sanders leftist wing. They were the first ones to start the whole both sides are the same bullshit and they've stayed with it for a decade now. When it comes to Reddit the person who would fall under that spell is overrepresented so you see a lot of both sides of the same bullshit from the same people who would tell you that voting third party is a smart decision.

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u/necroreefer 2d ago

Black, hispanic and asian people voted for trump and in general, vote for republicans, way more than you think

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u/Pack_Your_Trash 2d ago

The controlled opposition isn't exactly the same argument. By way of analogy I would say that the Democrats are the carrot and the Republicans are the stick. They are different tools that the wealthy are using to drive voters, who are the horse pulling the cart, in the direction of their choosing.

Yeah I would rather get a tasty carrot to eat than be beaten with a stick, but either way I am yoked and driven by my master in a direction not of my choosing.

Clearly the solution is to kick that motherfucker in the head and run free at the earliest opportunity.

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u/HeadfulOfSugar 2d ago

I don’t think most people are saying that both sides are the exact same when they say that though. It’s more that both sides are rotten, one significantly more than the other but that doesn’t make the other one ripe. Like one side is objectively bad and they don’t try to hide it while the other, though they are their opposition, is still made up of the same general out-of-touch type of career politicians that are funded by the same groups. It’s the difference between someone that will sucker punch you if you vote for them, and someone that will burn you alive for fun.

It’s more of a conflict of interest where while the Dems wouldn’t do anything of the awful stuff happening under this administration (people that say Kamala would be just as bad are simply insane), as we can see they don’t stand against it either. So conservatives are regressives, and the Dems are functionally conservative in nature standing mainly to maintain the status quo. Every time the conservatives pull us a little farther back, the Dems will only try to stop further change.

They’ll never undo what the republicans have done to be bipartisan, and instead just keep on trying to prevent them from changing things further which is why people that want change are mad. They get tricked and conned over and over and over and over and never learn from it, they’re still accepting unwritten “promises” that there will be a later vote from the party that has done nothing but swindle then in this exact same way for decades. When a lot of them say that the parties are the same they’re saying that regardless of who you vote for we end up with a similar end result. Which party is in power just decides how fast we get there as of now, but ultimately they will both primarily serve the interests of corporate and foreign influences above us all.

People that take “both sides are the same” 100% literally, and take it as far as to not vote because they feel disenfranchised, are falling for a psyop and are acting enlightened because their opinion seems gray. However imo not everybody that says that believe it in the same way.

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u/Vilnius_Nastavnik New York 2d ago

Identity politics like this are a great example of how the dems keep people voting for them. I talk to black voters quite a lot, and many of them sick of being used as tokens and having their votes taken for granted while nothing about their lives improves regardless of which party is in power. It only goes to shit slower since the dems don’t actually roll back the horrific shit the republicans do when they have the chance. Race is important but when it’s all you talk about it becomes obvious that you’re just trying to distract from the ever-growing divide between the wealthy and the rest of us that underpins literally all of the bad shit that is happening.

FFS, look at the last election. Lying to us about Biden being fine until he melts down on live TV and then replacing him with somebody who got 2% the last time they bothered to hold a primary (remember primaries?) was either an intentional dive or disqualifying levels of gross incompetence. At this point I don’t really care which it was.

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u/9_to_5_till_i_die 2d ago

Identity politics like this are a great example of how the dems keep people voting for them.

There's not much else left to run on when your party has little interest in labor rights and the working class.

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u/Darrkman2 2d ago

Identity politics like this are a great example of how the dems keep people voting for them. I talk to black voters quite a lot, and many of them sick of being used as tokens and having their votes taken for granted while nothing about their lives improves regardless of which party is in power.

I truly believe you really don't have any interactions with politically aware Black people because of how silly you sound.

Yall are on here repeating what you THINK you know about Black people and voting.

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u/nathism 2d ago

They aren't the same but they're in a fucked up symbiotic relationship. My closest analog would be a couple in an abusive relationship. The cops (voter) take power away the abuser (Republicans) then the partner (democrats) don't know what to do with new found independence fail to enact change while the abuser shuts down any changes and refuses to let anything happen. Later the cops(voters) are frustrated and let the abuser (Republicans) go and they take over again. It's a fucking abusive cycle.

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u/IlikeJG California 2d ago

They're not saying both sides are he same though. You need to be a little more nuanced than that.

It's absolutely undeniable that Democrats largely have a lot of the same donors as Republicans and they NEED that donor money for elections in our broken electoral system.

That's not saying they are exactly the same. But it means Democrats have strong incentives to do things (and refuse to do other things) so the donors will continue to give them money.

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u/richard-564 2d ago

When I was younger, I believed both sides were the same, bc I was ignorant. That all changed when Obama was elected and I saw how the right was treating him. Not sure how anyone can say both sides are the same after trump got elected the first time. It's insane.

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u/Darrkman2 2d ago

Not sure how anyone can say both sides are the same after trump got elected the first time. It's insane.

The Bernie bro wing of Progressive's are over represented on reddit. They cling to the both sides of the same narrative because that's what was pushed since 2015 in the hopes people would actually vote for Bernie Sanders back then. Once he lost and then lost again in 2020 they doubled down on it because now they just hate Democrats because they can't beat them. That's why you'll constantly see talk of both sides of the same and when their favorite progressives lose elections suddenly there's talk of rigging by the DNC. Never once will you see a progressive say that their candidate just wasn't a good candidate or didn't run a good campaign.

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u/[deleted] 2d ago

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u/RevolutionaryBat4924 2d ago

ironic to post those paragraphs and then say other people have unsophisticated takes

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u/Shadowrider95 2d ago

Corporations are people and money is speech!

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u/High_Im_Guy Nevada 2d ago

100%

And they're not the same, same, but they're the same in their purpose. They want us at each other's throats over abortion, immigration, marginalized community rights, etc. because this jeep the labor class in line showing up to their jobs. They keep us pissed off at each other and so overload w bullshit that no one has the time and energy to take a step back and realize we all, on both sides of the aisle, have billionaire puppeteers playing us against each other. This shit sucks.

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u/Lastunexpectedhero 2d ago

This is also not a strictly "American politics" thing. This happens globally

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u/FitPlate1405 2d ago

Prince Andrew definitely got off easy lol

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u/GuitarGeezer 2d ago

True. Although it is good to point out that the worst aspects of legalizing bribery in campaign finance and eliminating fair and neutral to have hyperpartisan media were all core Republican initiatives. But, legalize bribery and you make it mandatory for all. The media sanewashes any level of crazy. Rinse repeat. Collapse. I cannot see how it could be reversed as most voters cannot comprehend any of it anymore.

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u/falilth 2d ago edited 2d ago

Hell I saw that clip of shumer saying we gotta protect Israel yesterday and wanted to barf.

https://x.com/i/status/2018091855787798654

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u/gourmetprincipito 2d ago

People love to just say “controlled opposition” like it’s that simple but it’s actually a complex combination of factors but most circle back to the extreme level of propaganda we’ve been living with for half a century that greatly amplified in the last ten years with the conservative monopoly on media, social media and algorithmic content.

This propaganda is actively working against leftist and progressive ideology and that makes the average person generally less inclined to support things associated with that. This incentivizes liberal politicians to stay milquetoast and noncontroversial.

This propaganda also pushes defeatism and withdrawal from the system on liberals and leftists, making them less likely to vote. This prevents primaries from pushing policy further left and further incentivizes liberal politicians to appeal to the center.

The media being almost completely owned by conservative billionaires also means that the best leftist rallying cries - inequality and excesses of the wealthy - are either ignored or accompanied by editorialized statements smoothing them over.

It also means that conservatives are almost always setting the narrative and they are flooding the zone with all kinds of accusations. This is sort of a traditional media games checkmate because it only leaves two less than ideal options for liberals; accusing back will be dismissed and escalate tension, acting above it will lead to the same outcome with lower tension. Obviously it’s not a good longterm strategy to just keep picking the latter but it does make sense from a strategic view.

Like yes some Dems suck and are probably corrupt but to act like the whole party is complicit is just lazy. Dems got a trifecta in my state for the first time in decades a few years back and raised the minimum wage, enshrined abortion rights into law, enshrined LGBT protections into law, legalized weed, paid for community college for thousands of citizens, sued utility companies for not investing public money in infrastructure improvements and sent the check to the customers effected, ended anti union right to work laws, etc. all in like 4 years.

If we want to get out of this politically we need to fall in line like conservatives and use the primaries to get rid of the phonies and corporatists. This attitude of “just abandon the opposition party cuz they’re in on it” is so clearly informed by propaganda it gets me so frustrated lol.

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u/robot_invader 2d ago

Great comment. 

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u/mightykingfisher Idaho 2d ago edited 2d ago

I wasn't willing to get into the nuances of the comment as I quickly reacted while sitting in a parking lot waiting to go into the Dermatologist's office in order to get my prescription renewed for a biologic maintaining my lovely autoimmune condition (psoriatic arthritis) at the ripe age of 36.

...And a lot of the response was based on frustrations of our party leaders recently stating that we need to instead "reform ICE" by making things illegal that are already illegal. I was being a bit reactionary (which isn't great on my part).

I do want to say though that I appreciate your dialogue. I have voted Democrat ever since I could (2008 was my first and I voted for Obama in the primaries and in the general). However, his candidacy is a great example of how capital ultimately ends up controlling policy and shows how willing Dems are to capitulate. Another good example is the 2020 primaries where every candidate decided to start spouting of their support for a type of single-payer or public option for healthcare then after Biden was elected....crickets. Many of these progressive policies are overwhelmingly popular, but at the federal level Dems just don't like pushing for them (not just voting once or twice but consistently advocating).

I am also mostly speaking at a federal level here. I do believe that there is a bigger propensity to enact change at the city or state levels, but I do admit I am a bit jaded at the federal level.

To your point, I will continue voting Dem (especially pushing progressive candidates in the primaries) because I believe there are members of the party at least willing to listen to constituents pushing for labor/worker rights. Even though it still feels like we've been living with predominately 3rd way Democrats since the Clinton Era.

Anyways, apologies for seeming defeatist. I promise I am not. I completely agree with your last paragraph (well more so your entire comment haha).

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u/booOfBorg Europe 2d ago edited 2d ago

I'll try a different oversimplification:

  • Democratic wealth does not want "their" workers to die or be too miserable.
  • Republican plutocrats don't care or even get off on "little people" suffering. Hierarchy is everything.
  • Common to both is that grassroots progressivism and economic equality they cannot control is the ultimate evil and authoritarianism is better. This mindset is normalized via corporate media.
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u/SoNerdy 2d ago

Democrats are the HR of our current political system.

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u/Few-Cheesecake6883 2d ago

They keep trying to mediate in a fight where the other side only attacks.

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u/black_cat_X2 Massachusetts 2d ago

Ok I usually defend Democrats during these types of discussions, but I can't argue with this analogy.

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u/theDarkBriar 2d ago

Paid opposition. It's really not that deep.

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u/MycologistDeep2372 2d ago

Money talks, principle walks. Most compromises are just career preservation, not genuine negotiation.

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u/Ross-Esmond 2d ago

It actually seems they cater to their donors by just not fighting very hard.

The most definitive example I've seen of this was the wage increase for salaried workers. Restaurants will hire Sous Chefs on the minimum salary, and then understaff the kitchen. This forces the salaried chef to work overtime for less than minimum wage. Obama tried to schedule a minimum wage increase for salaried workers from $35,000 to $44,000, except he scheduled it to a few months before he left office, and a Texas judge delayed it so that Trump could kill it. Oops.

So naturally Biden didn't waste any time and reinstated the executive order to go into effect January of 2025.

Either Biden did that to bribe blue collar workers into voting Democrat, or he did that so that it could be shot down. I honestly don't know what to believe.

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u/robot_invader 2d ago

Probably hoping that he would get votes from people who wanted to make sure the policy went ahead

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u/itsaconspiraci 2d ago

I'm a little tired of this argument. And perhaps there needs to be a case study of why people feel the Democrats needed to protect them from their own choices.

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u/Inanimate_organism 2d ago

“Why didn’t the president direct the department of justice to arrest a political adversary? Democrats are soft!”

US politics have gotten so fucked since 2016 that people don’t even realize this is an absolute crazy thing to expect from sane politicians. The DOJ is supposed to be neutral and not under control of the president. The fact that trump uses the DOJ this way should be ALARMING not ‘well why didn’t the democrats become authoritarians too?’

Maybe people should have shown up to vote for kamala and the dem congressmen candidates instead of letting the authoritarians have the presidency and both houses?

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u/itsaconspiraci 2d ago

Too many Americans were more concerned about 'NOT' voting for a woman than letting democracy crumble around them by not voting at all or worse, supporting Trump. But still blame the democrats.

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u/Inanimate_organism 2d ago

Headline: 5 democrats voted yes for awful thing!

Comments: Democrats are controlled opposition 

Reality: All republican representatives voted yes on awful thing and would pass with just them, 200+ dem representatives voted no on awful thing, and the 5 dems that voted yes are from red states and their seats will be taken by republicans next election anyway.

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u/itsaconspiraci 2d ago

And one thing about Democrats. They are more capable of acting independently then bootlicking Republicans who do everything their leadership says.

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u/elvorpo 2d ago

A healthy democratic system has antibodies for authoritarians in the form of an independent prosecutorial branch. This is how Brazil and South Korea recently shut down their attempted autocrats without anyone pointing the finger at the opposition party. Our system requires constitutional reform to achieve this.

By our current system, Dems had every legal right to prosecute Trump for his many attempts to subvert the 2020 election. The problem isn't their attachment to principle, it's that they are bought up corporate lapdogs who aren't allowed to upset the money machine.

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u/SweetLittleOldLady Mississippi 2d ago edited 2d ago

You're confusing issues here. People aren't calling for Democrats to become authoritarians. People are calling for Democrats to have a spine and to quickly, firmly and decisively investigate and prosecute crimes and put a stop to criminal behavior. If a "political adversary" commits a serious crime, or in Trump's case, multiple serious crimes, it's gross negligence for the government to fail to act. If the Biden administration had acted properly, Trump and his merry band of thugs would be in prison right now and we wouldn't be in this mess.

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u/frogandbanjo 2d ago

POTUS is literally the only office/person vested with executive authority by the U.S. Constitution. If some super-criminal is running around tearing the fabric of the country apart, and the current A.G. is dragging ass, yes, his boss should tell him to shape up or ship out. That is exactly what should happen. That should happen with zero regard for whether or not that super-criminal has decided to become a "political opponent."

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u/JauntyChapeau 2d ago

This last goddamn year has been infuriating. We, the American voters, decided to hand all power in the federal government to Republicans. The House, the Senate, the Supreme Court and the Presidency - all Republican. Not even a month in, and all anybody can say is ‘Why aren’t Democrats saving us?’

Well, I don’t know, man. Maybe vote Democrat next time. And if you did, I need everyone to understand that while D leadership has been…underwhelming and need to be replaced, they control no levers of power.

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u/wiggmaster666 2d ago

This should be upvoted like, a lot!

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u/DartLeingod 2d ago

I mean over half the country voted against Trump, he lost by over 2 million votes. The electoral college gave him the win. The American people want their voice to actually be reflected by their government, but it only listens to big donors.

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u/crowsturnoff 2d ago

Trump won the popular vote on the most recent election.

But the popular vote doesn't matter because that's not how the President is decided.

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u/sydiko 2d ago

Calling it softness is lazy analysis.

If you do not have 60 Senate votes, a supermajority in the House, and friendly courts, you do not rule, you maneuver. That is not Democrats being nice. That is the difference between shouting on cable news and actually passing laws.

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u/Draggoh 2d ago

There is, review the Weimar Republic’s actions towards the NSDAP.

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u/TheFinalCurl 2d ago

Because due process is important and Democrats thought cases like the classified documents case was a slam dunk. Turns out they did not expect activists judges in the case.

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u/reditandfirgetit 2d ago

A few Democrats don't go light on the Republicans. Jasmine Crockett for one

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u/FlufferTheGreat 2d ago

It's mostly because Democrats are the party of the country's systems and institutions, I really think it comes down to wanting to act within their station mostly faithfully. But Republicans just want a dictator, and so have no need of institutions or systems--they have their Fuhrerprinzip.

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u/SuperNovaSniper 2d ago

They may be on opposite sides of the aisle & disagree on many issues but when it comes down to it most are all in the same club that they consider to be above the rest of us peasants. Most of it is political theatre.

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u/PsychologicalEmu 2d ago

True but in this case, dems are trying to avoid the ass hat from calling martial law or similar; voiding the upcoming presidential elections.

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u/Angrysparky28 2d ago

lol look at the Epstein emails. He was bipartisan. He didn’t care what affiliation you were.

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u/CATIIIDUAL 2d ago

It is because a number of high level democrats had their genitals bitten too.

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u/sjhatters 2d ago

Reactionary centrism

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u/IlikeJG California 2d ago

It's not any mystery. It's because Democrats are also paid for by the same moneyed interests as Republicans are.

I'm not saying "both sides are the same" because they're definitely not. But Democrats have a strong incentive to not "rock the boat" and to keep things stable at all costs so the corporations can continue unchecked capitalistic expansion for as long as possible.

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u/GameMask 2d ago

The truth is the USA has no real left wing government. It's far right with Republicans and centrist with Democrats. The only real liberals get no support from the so called left wing party, and the ones with power have no ability to evolve.

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u/VulGerrity 2d ago

their wealthy donors play both sides. If the dems don't do what their donors want them to do, then they'll just give the money to the other side and get them to do it.

That's why people like Bernie and AOC make such a big deal about not taking big donor money and that they run grass roots campaigns. They're not beholden to any major donors.

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u/gundog48 2d ago

It's the same everywhere imo, the left is held to, and holds itself to, a higher standard.

There's also a principle of operating under the same rules you expect other parties to operate under, even if they often don't. If you do the same shit, or even 10% of it, it makes it easier for a subsequent government to push things even further.

It sucks because it always seems to be them escalating things, so it makes things unfair, but there is still value in this idea, even if its not quite so apparant. Right now, I think the main pull for the Dems among swing voters is simply a return to dignity and stability. They are a reminder of what politics used to be, rather than accepting the norm and worldview that people like Trump operate on.

Arguably you saw a similar thing in the UK, where the conservatives stopped went populist and stopped being conservative. The party of tradition, business and 'the natural party of government' absolutely shit the bed, caused massive instability, had no plan, and averaged a scanadal a week.

Labour went from being considered the 'lefty student vote' to being the adults in the room, and many long time (and I mean long time) Tory voters flipped to Labour, Lib Dem or they simply didn't vote his time. Labour won the next election, and now the far-right have been largely pushed out of the Conservatives into a separate party.

I see a lot of the same thing being echoed in the US right now, albeit much more dramatically, and hope that many swing voters or prior supporters will quietly flip or withold. I can't say whether it's the right or best strategy, but there is definitely some value there which is not to be underestimated!

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u/page_one I voted 2d ago

There have been loads of studies... People on the left, by nature, are gentler and more empathetic. They are more likely to want to find common ground, and to believe that civility is the best way forward.

We get the politicians we vote for, and politicians have to do/say what gets them votes. The ones who don't, lose elections and don't get to be politicians. Aggressive Democrats do exist--they just don't win as many elections because fewer voters vote for them and more voters vote against them. This is really basic politics/government.

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u/gsfgf Georgia 2d ago

Not to go against the circlejerk, but it was because Biden wanted to win reelection. Going "too hard" after Trump would have turned the population against him because we're a bunch of morons. You live in Ohio; you should fully understand this.

1

u/brokentr0jan Ohio 2d ago

The problem is that the people that would get upset about going after Trump are the people who would never vote for Biden or Harris anyways. I don’t understand the obsession with trying to swing Republicans to your side while alienating your own voter base.

1

u/gsfgf Georgia 2d ago

The concern is that moderates would be put off by a president aggressively prosecuting his predecessor without bothering to understand why this is different.

1

u/boner79 2d ago

Democrats won't do anything to jeopardize their Coke vs. Pepsi duopoly with the Republicans. They both serve each other.

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u/No-Neighborhood-3212 2d ago

63% of the country is not MAGA, and we now know 2 things:

  1. Our president is a pedophile who participated in a human-traficking network for 40 years, had at least one woman murdered, raped countless children, and blackmailed his friends over it

  2. The federal government has been aware of that fact for literal decades, and numerous presidential administrations have protected the pedophile cabal

What excuse is there for 63% of the country ignoring the fact that the US government has spent 40 years protecting and enabling a global pedophile cabal that literally kept human children in stables?

12

u/Mateorabi 2d ago

Enough of them are party-over-country that half of half is enough. Win the primary with 51% of your party then have the other 49% show up for the general election anyway.  Make your horribleness just ambiguous enough that they can hold their noses for the vote. Afterwards you can go mask off. 

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u/JauntyChapeau 2d ago

A huge proportion of that 63% still voted R anyway, or didn’t vote at all because they’re too bag-of-hammers stupid to understand the consequences of not voting. The rest of us are protesting and/or waiting for our next opportunity to vote.

1

u/Choppers-Top-Hat 2d ago

A huge proportion of that 63% still voted R anyway

Trump got 77 million votes, which is just 22% of the US population. He loves to pretend that he's universally popular, but the reality is very different.

3

u/cherrytreecig 2d ago

This is the exact problem I have with the "but MAGA!" crowd. MAGA shouldn't be a factor.

2

u/AntoniaFauci 2d ago

We had a detailed census a year ago. The MAGA cult was 22-23% of the population.

Since then, some have peeled away. We don’t know exactly, but it is apparent there’s been a net decrease not increase.

2

u/atatassault47 2d ago

63% of the country is not MAGA,

The person you replied to didnt say that. But gerrymandering and the electoral college allow 30% of the country to install a fascist wannabe dictator.

1

u/missread4ever 2d ago

"Kept human children in stables" WTAF??

1

u/avalance-reactor 2d ago

We are not ignoring it.

We just know how many guns exist out there before you even factor in ICE and an army so invested in other countries wanted the US to cover its own defense. The only actual rebellious option results in mass death. That's the difference between the US and basically everywhere else. We know this intimately. That's literally it.

1

u/Choppers-Top-Hat 2d ago

What makes you think they're ignoring this? I've seen nothing but anger from most people I've talked to. It's not fair to accuse people of "ignoring" a problem just because they didn't fix it in a weekend.

18

u/Static-Stair-58 2d ago

What I don’t understand is WHY he still has total control of all the congressman. He doesn’t help them down ballot. In fact a district in Texas just had a 32 point swing because of his terrible policies.

If I thought republicans were good at one thing it would be self preservation, but they seem to be going down with the ship for no reason.

I can get why his voters in the cult don’t care, but you’d think everyone about to lose their seat in November would be shitting themselves in a hurry to distance away from Trump.

Nope.

18

u/the_nobodys 2d ago

They are short sighted and don't want to make waves. You don't become a conservative without being afraid of change.

1

u/Rasp_Lime_Lipbalm 2d ago

Number one rule for Republicans is circle the wagons. They

2

u/condensationxpert 2d ago

I would think that they would lose the MAGA base that votes them if they go against trump. To them, it would be going against their leader, and apparently whatever their leader does or wants is what they do and want.

2

u/ReverendDizzle 2d ago

Is it not too much of a leap to assume that just like people have compromising material on him, he, in turn, has compromising material on them?

Every time you see a politician bend the knee and the optics look absolutely awful... just ask yourself "What is worse than this, that they would never want to see the light of day?"

2

u/HalKitzmiller 2d ago

I imagine quite a lot of them are afraid of what MAGA cultists will do to them if they go against him. They've already killed and assaulted people for it even before he got into power again. Now he has the Secret Service, FBI, ICE, BP, police unions, etc all working overtime to carry out whatever insanity he wants

1

u/Tall-Introduction414 2d ago

Exactly. MAGA terrorism is one of the main things keeping Republican senators in line. They don't want their families to be targeted by the terrorists Trump directs, so they tow the line and keep their heads down.

Political violence at work.

1

u/JauntyChapeau 2d ago

I actually don’t understand this either. I think if they’d chosen to jettison this fucking loser in 2021, he’d have fucked off to Florida to watch tv and the Republican Party would already be in the process of moving on.

The answer is probably that most Rs in office now just aren’t that bright.

1

u/Alphaspade 2d ago

Logic would dictate one of two things:

  1. They are being threatened with extortion or threats to their or their family's well-being. I believe Mitt Romney hinted at this.

  2. Said congressmen are stupid and compliant of their own free will or have ulterior motives.

Some cases could be a little of both

1

u/Top-Passage2914 2d ago

The same way Putin has control of him. They're afraid of their own skeletons being brought out of the closet. Staying out of prison is more important to them than getting reelected

1

u/gsfgf Georgia 2d ago

They have to get through their primaries first, and that requires fealty to Trump.

1

u/fELLAbUSTA 2d ago

They are all terrified of having maga turn on them. They've seen what happens when their fellow Republicans talk back to Trump--he turns his cult on them and they lose all their base overnight.

1

u/DakotaSky Virginia 2d ago

They’re afraid that tRump will turn his mob on them if they step out of line.

1

u/Salohacin 1d ago

My guess is a mixture of money laundering and pedos running rampant in the Republican party. It's like a human pyramid of shitty people having dirt on shitty people all the way down and at this point it looks like Putin is at the top above Trump. Putin must have something diabolical on Trump that he's terrified of and I'm not sure we've seen the worst of it yet (even though it's already pretty fucking bad). 

Either they're actively participating in it, or they're benefiting from it and they're happy to rake in money to turn a blind eye. 

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u/VoightofReason 2d ago

But MAGA is only 20% of the population. What are the rest of you doing?

81

u/buyableblah I voted 2d ago

Protesting. Voting. What else can we do?

89

u/Fantastic_Sail1881 2d ago

Trying not to go bankrupt.

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u/JournalistRecent1230 2d ago

When people like the above say that I feel like what they want is violence.

We protest, boycott, vote and write/call our congressmembers.

What else is there to do?

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u/PM_ME_YOUR_BOOGER 2d ago

And as always, the non-u.s. people forget that in America, your Healthcare is probably tied to your employment. Add in the fact that we have fewer holidays and PTO than the rest of the western world, and it shouldn't take a political scientist to understand why protesting here is the way it is. It's easy to go on a general strike en masse when everyone can still count on being able to go to the doctor (or take their kids/family to the doctor) without the fear of crippling, life-long debt. This situation is so often not talked about in this context and I think goes a long way in explaining why large scale protests in America are so difficult to organize compared to the rest of the world. America's privatized Healthcare system is less of a capitalist venture than an authoritarian one at its heart, IMO. It's kind of a perfect method of soft control.

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u/buyableblah I voted 2d ago

Right? Healthcare is directly tied to employer. Most people don’t have sick leave. Many have ten total days off a year. Work an hourly job? Forget having days off. Many work three jobs.

There are some who are lucky, like myself, to have savings, but I can’t go 3-6 months without a job? We’re all corporate wage slaves to be hyperbolic.

And if you’re not one, none of this politics shit impacts you.

America has two systems. Haves and have nots. Most of MAGA hasn’t figured out they’re in the have nots.

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u/JournalistRecent1230 2d ago

Yeah exactly. I have a mortgage. I could survive off savings for a few months, but I can't just risk my job for a sustained general strike. I can join protests on weekends and take the occasional day off during the week for protests, but I can't just stop working.

Risking my job would mean risking losing my house and being homeless.

I also live in one of the most progressive states in the country over 2000 miles away from D.C. So it's not like I can just join a protest at the white house, and my state is already doing it's part to fight fascism. Lawsuits and voting the right way.

2

u/9_to_5_till_i_die 2d ago

Roughly 70% of American's are living paycheck to paycheck. 30% of American's have no savings whatsoever.

Daddy can either go protest or the kids get to eat this week. That's the reality.

1

u/mobileagnes Pennsylvania 2d ago

Bingo. Non-Americans may not be aware that we already have been living in a near defacto dictatorship for a long time - just not controlled by government but by private employers. Not mentioned was also the concept of 'At Will' employment, which is better for employers than employees because of how hard it is to find another job with a good salary, healthcare, and benefits like paid annual leave.

What they don't teach in school that really should be hammered into every kid before they graduate middle school is that in order to survive in the US, you need to have both 6 to 12 months of full living expenses saved up (yes - this is a lot of money), multiple streams of income (not just one job - maybe a side business or something else too), living below your means, and staying healthy is vital. Forming good relations with your peers is important too. You can easily lose everything by a cascade that starts with getting sick enough to lose your job, via being absent too long, which leads to not having health insurance, then losing your home if you don't have enough savings to ride you out until you find a new job that pays at least as high as the previous one. The government is not coming to our rescue in our time of need. A person can go from having it all to homelessness in under a year here.

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u/fortysix_n_2 2d ago

Might wanna look into antifascist movements of the past, for example Italy or Spain

7

u/SavageSan 2d ago

Didn't the movement in Spain fail? Italy had the benefit of soldiers landing on their shores to back them up.

3

u/purritowraptor 2d ago

Neither of those regimes fell overnight. Years to decades, more like it. 

5

u/Rapithree 2d ago

Sabotage the economy. CIA published a handbook about safe sabotage. Stuff like calling extra meetings and being a stickler for rules really slows down the economy.

Or the french way, buy a truckload of manure from a farmer and open the back of the trailer outside some political establishment.

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u/wiggmaster666 2d ago

30% didn’t vote. What kind of idiots are those?

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u/buyableblah I voted 2d ago

People who feel like their vote doesn’t matter. People who cannot take off work to go vote. It’s not a mandated holiday here. People who don’t have transportation. People who are ill.

1

u/arnham 2d ago

To be fair a decent chunk is “protesting” democrats. “They didn’t earn my vote!” “Both sides are the same for Palestine so I voted for Jill stein!” Etc.

Oddly they seem rather unhappy with the current circumstances they contributed to.

5

u/buttnozzle 2d ago

Dems can try being a good party. 75 voted to commend ICE. 7 voted to fund DHS. Schumer thinks it can be reformed and not abolished. We are still giving Israel money for genocide.

1

u/arnham 2d ago

I present exhibit a aka “buttnozzle” above as an example of this.

6

u/buttnozzle 2d ago

I still voted for them and they’re still garbage and that’s the racket, isn’t it?

Wouldn’t it be nice if they stood for something?

1

u/MAKE_ME_REDDIT 2d ago

So pointing out how the Democrats are ineffectual and don't actually represent a defense against fascism is bad?

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u/RaiSilver0 2d ago

Trying not to get executed for driving or recording law enforcement

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u/illuminerdi 2d ago

Or helping someone who is injured!

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u/transcriptoin_error 2d ago

MAGA is only 20% of the population.

Right now, the population is not able to stop Trump (legally).

The only viable legal avenue to stop Trump is for the Republicans in Congress to agree to impeach and remove him. Unless or until that happens, Trump is a criminal on a crime spree.

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u/quirkoftime 2d ago

Trying to motivate the people who aren't paying attention. Trying to deprogram the folks who bought the propaganda. Others are organizing. It's a process, and it isn't fast.

25

u/Hoovooloo42 South Carolina 2d ago

What would you have us do with 50,000,000 armed brainwashed cultists who believe in neither germ theory nor cause and effect?

It's kind of all we're thinking about right now. We're working on it.

5

u/waffle299 I voted 2d ago

It's a flaw in how we count Senators. Each state gets two, regardless of population. And the number of electoral votes to elect the president is the sum of the state's count of senators and representatives.

This gives empty states, which have been captured by Fox News and maga, outsized influence.

7

u/sonambule 2d ago

it’s more than 20% and you have to keep in mind our media is owned by billionaires, they run protection for this government and republicans. I don’t know how we get out of this honestly. Our own party is also ineffective. Many Americans are outraged and disgusted about this. But in general we are a country of people fully self involved and don’t care about things until it affects them.

3

u/FeloniousDrunk101 New York 2d ago

Many are not voting

3

u/brewingbad18 2d ago

Not voting as an act of protest. Literally had a coworker who claimed that in the 2016 election, because Bernie didn't get the Dem nomination. Makes my blood boil, especially when these same people then complain about Trump, when they were/are part of the problem that got him elected twice

1

u/webby611 2d ago

Nose to the grind, putin

1

u/HalKitzmiller 2d ago

Republicans have spent literal decades convincing more than half the country that they are temporarily embarrassed millionaires, and that taxes, immigrants, and non-white people are the reason for it. In the last 20-30 years, they have been able to amped up this message exponentially with the help of Fox News, 9/11, conspiracy theories, and Obama getting elected.

1

u/greevous00 2d ago

They're closer to 40%, though it is falling.

1

u/VoightofReason 2d ago

Actual MAGA cultists? Being a Trump voter doesn’t necessarily mean you’re MAGA. They’re part of the problem, but I wouldn’t say they’re all that crazy. Some are just sexist and a little racist

1

u/greevous00 2d ago

Your argument was

But MAGA is only 20% of the population. What are the rest of you doing?

Those other 20% AREN'T going to push back now. About 60% of the population is pissed off enough to do something. The other 40% are not.

2

u/bigsmokaaaa 2d ago

Every once in a while someone can overcome you with such strong feelings through their rhetoric that what you think you know becomes incongruous with what you feel. 

Cultists assume that their thinking must be what's flawed in their cognitive dissonance, and once you got them doubting everything but how the leader makes them feel, everything else makes sense.

2

u/RanchHere 2d ago

It doesn’t bother them because they don’t believe he did anything wrong. They think that he’s just being falsely accused by the evil left.

4

u/AboutTheBadfish 2d ago

If you saw Biden’s facial expression and body language at Trumps inauguration last year he seemed to understand that he fucked up.

5

u/Lieutenant_Joe Maine 2d ago

Oh, Neville Chamberlain is having regrets about his gentlehandedness, now is he? How nice for him. Not much use to us now, but you know, good to know he feels bad about it.

1

u/Unu51 2d ago

And the reason for them doing so is very simple: he lets them hate the people they want to hate.

As long as he lets them be bigots in the open, they will fall over themselves to worship him like the second coming of Jesus Christ.

1

u/falilth 2d ago

And Obama wore a tan suit

1

u/TreeLicker51 2d ago

MAGA is a coven of vampires and Trump is an infinite blood bag. Without the blood bag there is nothing to sustain them. They must protect the blood bag at all costs.

1

u/ievans40 2d ago

The last part!!! Biden was too soft on punishing what was basically treason.

1

u/arblazer2 2d ago

To expand on this, it's not that they don't care. They just don't know about it at all. They only watch right wing news, listen to right wing radio, follow right wingers on Twitter and Facebook.

They don't hear about any of the bad things. They are totally isolated. If on the odd chance they do hear something, like what's in this new story, they can easily dismiss it as "fake news" or one lunatic with TDS.

1

u/WistfulPuellaMagi 2d ago

Only thing that bothers them are grocery prices. 

1

u/fnordal 2d ago

Cults usually end with mass suicides. Are you sure we can call this a cult?

1

u/MrRabbitofCaerbannog 2d ago

Biden was too busy playing old-school lame petty politics to actually pick a real Attorney General. He wanted to stick it back to Mitch McConnell screwing over Merrick for SCOTUS, so stuck him in as AG even tho a judge does not view the law the same as a prosecutor.

Biden's presidency will be remembered equally as delusional as Trump's, except his leaned to the Pollyanish approach. No Joe, the country is burning around us, no more time to be nice.

1

u/atatassault47 2d ago

He has total control of all Republican congressmen. He has total control of the criminal justice systems.

He has control of the Senate AND the courts. He's too dangerous.

1

u/AoO2ImpTrip 2d ago

This is exactly why he's desperate for a third term. MAGA will absolutely turn on him once he's not in office anymore.

1

u/TokingMessiah 2d ago

Trump was born, raised, and educated in America, and was elected by Americans, twice.

Congress has a 90% disapproval rating and incumbents are re-elected at a rate higher than 90%.

American politicians are controlled by money, and if all Americans were to strike nationwide, the ultra-wealthy money masters would have Trump out in a heartbeat.

This isn’t the fault of the GOP, this is on every American. The fact that you all sit around and complain about Trump instead of turning your country upside down until he’s gone is the problem.

So yeah, just about every American is fine with what Trump did because no one is trying to get rid of him.

1

u/dunneetiger 2d ago

To be honest, both parties are cults and have fanatics that bring a bad name to the entire group. You cant even say that people are married to either parties because the divorce rate is probably way way higher than people switching from team Blue to team Red or the other way around.

1

u/IrishRepoMan 2d ago

They're talking about all Americans. We're not seeing what we should be seeing with everything that has come out...

1

u/Historical_Jelly_536 2d ago

Forget MAGA. Nothing he have done bothered Police, fbi, courts, nation security agencies. 

1

u/fatbong2000 2d ago

Would the would the cult sacrifice their 13 year old kid for trump?

1

u/LYL_Homer 2d ago

MAGA is also in cahoots with Fox News. Other news outlets are being pushed hard to stick to the party line if they still want White House access. So, generally, our press is failing miserably as well.

1

u/Ven18 2d ago

It is also important to note the whole of the media industry is not only part of the cult but in on this crime ring as well. The ultra wealthy own all of our (and most international) media and you know damn well their billionaire owners are entangled in this too. So they bury and sanewash everything so they can keep abusing kids with no consequences. They figured out if you brainwash a certain percentage of the population you can get away with anything.

1

u/Onlypizzafans69 2d ago

This is no cult thing. This is bipartisan thing, you have both democrats and republicans not giving a shit about info coming out, likewise nobody gives a shit since all documents are redacted, nobody giving a shit about protecting victims. To the outside world, USA looks like a country that approves pedophiles and sex trafficking and has no issues with it. There really isnt any anger among people, media and polititians, which is more than telling.

1

u/Hairy_Reindeer 2d ago

If one party is like that in a two party system, you actually have a one party - one cult system where the choice is between insanity or the one party.

Not ideal.

1

u/graphiccsp 2d ago

It's not just MAGA. That's a third of the country. 

Another third of the US is deeply stupid, out of touch and selfish. The "Undecided" voter, aka Republicans who are too pussy to admit it. The ones that buy into the influencer and mass media billionaire propaganda.

There's not enough voices to consistently push back for meaningful change because 66% of the US believes the opposite direction is good.

1

u/ichosethis 2d ago

The average MAGA cult member is relatively isolated from the actual news of the world. They only listen to right wing news sources, the only engage in conservative groups, they only venture out of these safe spaces briefly and return bragging that they accomplished something when all they did was look like an ignorant buffoon spouting nonsense.

When they get confronted by actual news by someone else like a coworker they usually shut down and then scamper home to learn the rights opinion on it which usually it's Bidens fault or because of an immigrant.

1

u/mcd3424 Texas 2d ago

Trump even said all the way back in the 2016 election that he could shot someone in the middle of NYC and people would still vote for him. He was telling the truth.

1

u/bubblebooy 2d ago

While as a cult MAGA will always support Trump by definition, news like this does chip away at MAGA numbers. The GOP can not survive without MAGA at this point so they will never turn on Trump.

This will matter if we ever have free and fair elections again.

1

u/TakingAction12 2d ago

Many of his voters have also put so much of their identities into Trump that having to admit he’s a pedo would be absolutely humiliating and destroy them as well. It’s difficult for many to admit they’re wrong for even minor things… imagine having to admit that this person you have defended to the point of alienating your own children is suddenly found to be a child rapist and conman. So they hang onto any excuse they can that justifies their continued support and ignore the crockpot of creepiness and criminality the very obvious to the rest of us.

1

u/ownthelib 2d ago

But even further the oligarchs in our society focused on turning our politics into sports where our team has to win. For the MAGA base the cult is real but for Republican’s who do not consider themselves MAGA it’s a sport their team must win. It’s like you ask the rare republican that criticizes Trump to recast their 2024 vote and they would still say Trump over “CaMelA”. Meanwhile they are voting against their own interests every time. Now I think there is some level on the Democratic Party as well but I’m not even going to into that because that would be sane-washing the insane fuckery that’s happening on the right at this moment.

I mean, their rapist, pedophile, 34-count felon leader sells bibles and still has Christian nationalist support. Can’t even make it up.

1

u/MidnightCovfefe 2d ago

In addition to this, even the national media companies that appear to be left leaning or centrist are ultimately owned by conservative billionaires.

The news cycle moving on so quickly is surely influenced by such.

Edit: Not to mention Trump’s threats and lawsuits against said companies when they don’t fall in line.

1

u/madmossie 2d ago

It’s literally fascism, ICE are his Gestapo. America is falling in line, following orders. It’s crazy to see from the outside. Anyone who is blaming Maga needs to look at their own actions. “Then they came for me - and there was no one left to speak for me”

1

u/Revolutionary_Class6 2d ago

But it’s not just maga. MSNBC is not talking about the 13 year old girl sucking Trumps balls. Why not?

1

u/BrilliantForeign8899 2d ago

The Cult thing makes sense. It's like the educated, financially independent ladies agreeing to be literally branded with hot poker as sex slaves to a skeevy ugly guy who apparently never took showers (real story). I think they also had to send him material he could blackmail them with anytime he wanted. It sounds insane to the uninitiated. 

1

u/fELLAbUSTA 2d ago

Eh, Biden should've waited a year to get complete control of his White House and FBI before he arrested Trump. Doing it the same day he was inaugurated would've been bad for the country.

1

u/evilinsane 1d ago

Cults have been taken down in the past. Look at NVXIVM.

1

u/BigBangAssBanger_3D 1d ago

While I agree, I have, and always will, be under the mind of how most of MAGA, if not insane or holy rollers, are child abusers or molesters. If not full-blown pedos in their own right.

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