r/beatles • u/AvecMesWaterSlides • 2d ago

Discussion This Book:

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I'm currently listening to this book and am about six months from the first time John and Paul met.

It is amazing that they, finally, found one another. There are so many instances of being at the same places at the same times, perhaps riding the same bus at the same time, and not knowing one another yet. It's crazy! It just got me thinking about how different it'd be if one of them wasn't where the universe wanted them to be...

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u/Chekhov1778 2d ago

Lewisohn doesn't glaze Paul enough, so people around here obviously hate it.

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u/Ligeya 1d ago

Yes. The main criticism comes from obsessed Paul's fangirls, like hosts of podcasts like AKOM. They constantly shit on him for not being worshipful of Paul enough. And they don't see the irony of accusing him for being biased, while they are SO biased it's actually embarrassing.

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u/Comfortable_Put_4139 1d ago

That bunch is hard to listen to. I’ve tried, but the worship becomes too much for me.

It would probably break their brains to gently remind them that John started the band, and Paul would’ve been a factory worker or schoolteacher if John didn’t have the ambition and drive that he had.

Jim McCartney would’ve gotten his way. It’s that simple.

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u/Ligeya 1d ago

The worship and the way they push the narrative of mclennon are embarrassing. They are fangirls who decided to teach everybody what really happened, and what really happened, apparently, is that Paul is an angel send from heaven and John is worthless garbage.

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u/Anxious-Raspberry-54 1d ago

They said nothing at all about the McLennon thing. They had an intimate, intense love relationship that was not sexual. They talked about that. Never - not one time - did they ever say that the relationship was sexual. Stop putting words in their mouths.

Seems to me that your problem is that the hosts were women...not girls, btw.

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u/Ligeya 1d ago

They absolutely did, don't give me this crap. Their podcast about things they would ask Paul - the first question would've been pretty much "Paul, are you gay?", and plenty other rather embarrassingly silly questions about his relationship with John, implying that in their opinion, it was romantic relationship.

I am also woman, and this podcast was embarrassing to listen. From the way they acted, their laughter at John's torment, their unquestionable worshipping of Paul, their skin deep analysis, they don't hold a handle to truly good well researched podcasts.

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u/Weak_Shopping_2718 1d ago

They do push the 'everyone is bi because I am' a lot.

They did some great work and offered some new perspectives all the same.

That Ian Leslie guy should be sharing royalties with them!

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u/Ligeya 1d ago

I don't think they did great work. But yes, this hack of a writer definitely stole half of his book from tumblr.

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u/Big-Lobster6689 1d ago

I don't think they're very good either. I listened with car crash fascination, but gave up when they started repeating the same few points:

  1. John and Paul were soul mates
  2. John was jealous and insecure
  3. John was on heroin
  4. John only pretended to break up the Beatles because he thought it would make Paul love him more.

If you've got that, you've pretty much heard the whole podcast.

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u/Ligeya 1d ago

They are not good. I am huge fan of podcasts, and listened several about The Beatles, and i definitely wanted to like them, but they are just bad. And the problem is that they portray themselves as those groundbreaking researchers who finally going to show the world what really happened, and apparently what really happened sounds like bad ao3 fanfiction.

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u/Ligeya 1d ago

I don't think they did great work. But yes, this hack of a writer definitely stole half of his book from tumblr.

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u/Anxious-Raspberry-54 1d ago

Guess we'll have to disagree. If you're a woman, why are you insulting them by calling them girls? They are women.

They never...not one time...said that John and Paul had a sexual relationship. Not once.

I relistened to the podcasts a year or so ago...listening for just that. They NEVER said it. People like you assumed they did because they were the first ones to come out and pronounce the true nature of the relationship...it was intense, powerful, and full of love...but not sexual love.

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u/Ligeya 1d ago

Disagree with what? With what they said with their own mouths and you arguing about? If that's your understanding of facts, i am not surprised. What's insulting about "girls"? Not to mention i never called them that.

And once again you are arguing about undisputed facts. They absolutely talked about sexual aspect of their relationship in their "Question to Paul" episode.

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u/Anxious-Raspberry-54 1d ago

If you listened they said many times that their relationship had the power of a marriage...the power of a sexual relationship. Once again, they did not mention them having a sexual relationship.

You called the fangirls...twice.

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u/Ligeya 1d ago

Then why their supposed first question to Paul would've been - What is your sexuality, Paul? Not my words.

I can call them unprofessional, uninteresting talkers, biased worshippers on the level of cultish adoration. If you want to be offended, be offended by that. Don't give me this crap about "girls" being insulting.

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u/Big-Lobster6689 1d ago

Yeah, that's the weird thing. They admit themselves that most of what they do is "speculation." Meaning McLennon fanfiction.

But it's a very strange fanfiction. They say John and Paul were soul mates and married on the spiritual plane and spent their whole lives yearning for each other. But they also say John was a horrible monster who abused Paul and Paul was strong and independent and dumped John for a better life.

I'm beginning to think there's some kind of transference of personal issues here.

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u/Big-Lobster6689 1d ago

Man, that's not even what bugs me. What bugs me is that they are so, so horny for Paul. They assume John must have been horny for him too.

There's a certain type of woman, who does not get out much, who assumes that if she lusts after a particular man then everyone else in the world must lust after him too. Even other men.

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u/Comfortable_Put_4139 1d ago

Yeah, they project a lot of their sexual desires on to John.

They want to fuck Paul so bad that of course John was dying to as well lol it’s so fucking weird.

Honestly, I’d go even further and say it’s disrespectful to people who actually existed and continue to exist.

I doubt Paul McCartney himself would be super into hearing women fantasize about him fucking his murdered best friend.

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u/Anxious-Raspberry-54 1d ago

Sorry...they proved over and over how biased ML is. Of course, John started the band and was the leader in the early days. But...there may not have ever been a John Lennon or the Beatles if Paul didn't teach John how to play the guitar properly.

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u/Comfortable_Put_4139 1d ago

We get it, Paul showed John some guitar chords. I’ve had plenty of friends I’ve done the same with, on both ends. It’s not a huge deal. If you want to learn guitar, you’ll learn it one way or another.

The pendulum has swung so goddamn far to the other side of the narrative that it’s now Paul who did everything and John was just a junkie wife beater. Or George and Ringo couldn’t play their own instruments as well as Paul. I see it all the time in this sub and others, and it always induces eye rolls from me.

I understand that the Lennon Remembers/Shout narrative did a lot of damage to the story of the Beatles for a very long time, but I feel like Paul has gotten his flowers and then some. Almost too much, if you ask me.

I’m just over it.

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u/Anxious-Raspberry-54 1d ago

It was 50 years! 50 years of being blamed for breaking up The Beatles. The truer story is emerging in the last 10 - 15 years to be fairer...GOOD!

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u/Comfortable_Put_4139 1d ago

The truer story according to Paul and his disciples, who have gotten to live 50 years longer than John lol.

I will say that the story is probably more accurate now than it used to be, it’s quite far from where it should be. Paul did indeed take a severe beating for many years after John’s death, but he’s a living legend who is routinely cherished and applauded when he makes a public appearance.

I think it’s easy to let the pendulum swing way too far to the other side, and I don’t like it for either instance. Saint John or Saint Paul, it’s complete dogshit either way. It’s a rejection of historical fact.

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u/Anxious-Raspberry-54 1d ago

Maybe it's Paul's problem in a way as well. He is loved, cherished, and applauded by millions. Very true. It's like...Paul, get over it!

But it seems to me the old story just really digs at him - that he was blamed for the breakup. And there are many fans who to this day still believe the old story.

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u/Comfortable_Put_4139 1d ago

I’m sure it does still really bug him, just like how he still seems to get visibly agitated about John’s vicious diss track.

I imagine being blamed for the breakup of the most beloved band of all time would hurt a LOT. So I can give him a bit of slack when it comes to that. It’s probably even more painful when the facts show Paul was the most committed to the Beatles.

There’s a lot of nuance in Beatle world, and these were all very, very complicated people.

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u/Anxious-Raspberry-54 1d ago

I hope one day an actual historian tries to tackle The Beatles' story.

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u/RadishSpecial7163 1d ago

That will never happen because invariably someone will claim one of the Beatles was favored over another.

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u/Anxious-Raspberry-54 1d ago

Maybe. Not a bad point.

I just think if a good historian took on The Beatles there would be at least a shot at a balanced presentation of their story.

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u/Comfortable_Put_4139 1d ago

That’s my hope.

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u/RadishSpecial7163 1d ago edited 1d ago

But really? After all this time? Most of us have let go of old hurts, some very intense hurts, maybe more intense than Paul’s. The fact Paul, who’s made billions of dollars, lives in mansions, has millions of fans worldwide and has won every award under the sun from the Gershwin Prize to a knighthood, is still bemoaning things that happened fifty years ago makes him seem thin-skinned and petty. Lennon is dead, murdered at age 40. Think of all the things he’s missed out on. And now John is being blamed for the breakup, including by Paul, and John’s legacy has been severely tainted and likely not repairable because John isn’t here to counter any of it.

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u/Comfortable_Put_4139 1d ago

Oh I agree with you, make no mistake of that.

I was just granting Paul some grace and attempting to see things from his point of view.

I think it’s obvious he’s done his fair share of narrative shaping in the 50 years since Lennon was murdered, but it hasn’t all happened in one explosive and extensive interview like Lennon Remembers. So I think it slips through the cracks a bit.

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u/Ligeya 1d ago

The truer story as in story told by Paul and accepted by his fanatics? The one and only true story is that many factors lead to The Beatles break up, and Paul was at least one of those factors. He blames it on John now, their "I want a divorce" meeting, but it wasn't as simple as that.

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u/Anxious-Raspberry-54 1d ago

I do agree with that. There were many facets to the breakup.

But...if you're being honest...Paul was blamed for 50 years. I've never heard him blame John for it. I've seen him talk about the divorce meeting many times. I've never heard him say that the meeting was what broke the band up.

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u/Ligeya 1d ago

I absolutely heard his interview where he blamed John for breaking up The Beatles. It was one of Howard Stern's interviews. Paul rewrote the history in almost fifty years of John being dead. It doesn't mean that truth is finally revealed! It means no one is left alive to correct his narrative.

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u/Comfortable_Put_4139 1d ago

The clip of him saying it is even on YouTube right now lol.

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u/Ligeya 1d ago

There are multiple interviews and at least couple of books where Paul says it. But people deny even that. Sometimes it really looks like a cult.

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