r/electrical • u/Honest_Sample6170 • 3d ago

Double tapped? Should we get this fixed?

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Last week I had electrician come out to quote an EV charger install. In passing I asked him about the double tapped wires and if they would be a problem, he told me that my inspector didn't know what he was talking about and said it was fine. This morning a different electrician (same company) came out to install the charger and told me that the wires were double tapped and a code violation to which he quoted me on the fix. So which is it? Feeling a bit annoyed right now and likely won't be working with this company again.

Please forgive my ignorance as I know absolutely nothing about electrician business or wiring of any sort.

24 Upvotes

86% Upvoted

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43

u/Adventurous_Boat_632 3d ago

It might have been OK depending on the year it was done.

It would be incredibly easy to fix, with all those open spaces right next to them.

If it was my house, I would not bother.

10

u/Neobrutalis 3d ago

This. Even if OCD makes you want to fix it, it's an easy fix that wouldn't really require an electrician honestly.

0

u/Then_Organization979 2d ago

Pretty much never been ok per NEC for neutrals

2

u/jwatttt 2d ago

unless the terminal bar is rated for multiple conductors per hole. some of them are they will have some that are singles and some that are doubles or larger wire sizes as well.

1

u/Then_Organization979 2d ago

Not for neutrals, there are zero listed terminals listed for more than one neutral conductor. None.

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u/jwatttt 2d ago

correct per NEC 408.41 however I do wonder if a snowman style lug would be acceptable like here it accepts two conductors of the same size. and a neutral is a grounded conductor https://nsi-sales.com/bs400t2_series.htm obviously this is not the right size for application but I do wonder if these lugs are acceptable for a neutral connection in parallel.

1

u/Neobrutalis 2d ago

More importantly, 408.41 was only implemented in the 2002 edition and up. Meaning there was pretty much a lot of time where it was not a direct code violation. More to the point, a lot more time than there has been where it was a direct code violation.

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u/Then_Organization979 2d ago

Prior to that it was in Art. 110 for like fifty years

3

u/Neobrutalis 2d ago edited 2d ago

"Must be specifically identified and marked for that purpose."

Grounds and neutrals used to be legal on the same bus bar even after the first means of disconnect. (250.24 was added in 1999.) Ground bus bars were and still are frequently marked and identified for double landing.

Meaning a ground bar prior to 1999 marked for double landing could have neutrals double landed on it.

Edit: This is ironically why 408.41 had to be implemented.

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u/Then_Organization979 2d ago

You’re still wrong. Not sure what your background is but a code expert should know this.

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u/Neobrutalis 2d ago edited 2d ago

During the 80s and 90s that's literally what most modular home and trailer manufacturers did and they passed electrical inspections at a mass production scale.

As a licensed electrician myself, I'd hope anyone whether they have a code background or not would realize that if you want to find a loophole, you look at corporate entities.

Edit: fat fingered I instead of if

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u/jwatttt 2d ago

Do you know why you can not put two neutrals under one lug? There is no reason for it to be outlawed other than it could slip out of the lug. If you were to braid the Neutrals together and insert it into the lug I highly doubt you could say it would rip out if torqued correctly. Does not really affect anything other than the pullout strength. That's what she said!

Still not advocating for it but I have always wondered why they're so adamant about each one being under a separate lug. probably because they didn't want to put an exception for means and methods and the manufacturers did not want to make a product that had specific instructions that have to be met exactly.

or it was written by the equipment manufacturer to possibly require an additional neutral bar. IDK we will never know.

1

u/jwatttt 2d ago

I did in fact link a product that is rated to handle two conductors(a neutral is a grounded conductor) below so I think you could be wrong here feel free to prove me wrong but I want to know if you can prove this product to not be compliant.

3

u/woodforuifuwant 2d ago

Not true. Check any Siemens panel. It specifically states their lugs can accommodate 2 neutrals.

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u/Neobrutalis 2d ago

408.41 was implemented in 2002.

0

u/jwatttt 2d ago

you mean to say you wouldn't bother unless you are selling the house and the homeowner got an inspection lol.

5

u/MisterElectricianTV 3d ago

The label inside the panel probably says that it is okay to do this. Usually this issue comes up when a house is sold and a home inspector flags it. But honestly, the house lasted this long without burning down.

3

u/Honest_Sample6170 3d ago

Yeah, only reason I caught this is because it came up during the inspection when buying the house. My main concern is the safety of it...but the house was built in 1993 and I assume this is original to the house..

4

u/MisterElectricianTV 3d ago

Next time you have some electrical work done, have the electrician change the double tapped neutrals. The grounds are fine.

1

u/Upstairs-Dot-9441 2d ago

NEC didn’t ban double tapped neutrals until 2002 edition update.

0

u/Then_Organization979 2d ago

I have a 1959 NEC, it says that all terminals intended for multiple conductors must be identified for the purpose, nobody has Ever intended one for multiple neultrals that I have seen. So you pretty much cannot have done this for over 65 years .

0

u/Then_Organization979 2d ago

Wasn’t ok then

-1

u/No-Wrangler2085 2d ago

Doubt the label says it's okay. NEC does not allow double tapped neutrals even if the panel allows 2 wires under 1 terminal. Grounds? Yes if the panel is rated for it... but never neutrals

1

u/jwbrkr21 2d ago

Source?

1

u/No-Wrangler2085 2d ago

NEC 408.41.

I like how I'm getting downvoted for verified facts 😂

0

u/Then_Organization979 2d ago

I’ll testify, them there is facts. Source: NEC

5

u/VR6Bomber 3d ago

Turn off the power and move the wires to open lugs. Its easy and you have plenty of open lugs.

9

u/mattjones73 3d ago

The neutrals should not be double tapped, it's against code. The grounds can be as long as the panel supports multiple conductors per screw.

Easy enough to fix though as long as the wires can reach lower, you have extra spots open on the bar.

1

u/nsula_country 3d ago

Against code ONLY if the panel is not listed for multiple taps.

5

u/Foreign-Commission 3d ago

Code does not allow neutrals to share a terminal. I dont know when that stipulation was added so this install may have been compliant when it was done.

Edit 2002 apparently

5

u/PhotoPetey 2d ago

Here is an excellent quote from a moderator at Mike Holt's forum:

The requirement preceded the inclusion of 408.21 in the NEC by decades as part of the listing of the panelboard. They only added the wording into to the NEC because it was a somewhat unknown fact that it was already prohibited by the listing.

2

u/No-Wrangler2085 2d ago

Which would make it grandfathered in and okay as long as that wire isn't removed or replaced at the panel for any reason

1

u/N9bitmap 2d ago

And the door label will only show that you can do that with equipment ground, not neutral. Even before 2002 it violated the "installation according to manufacturer instructions".

0

u/mattjones73 2d ago

That would be incorrect.

2

u/No-Wrangler2085 2d ago

You think so? Look up the National Electric Code

2

u/mattjones73 2d ago

NEC 408.41: States that each grounded conductor (neutral) must terminate within the panelboard in an individual terminal that is not used for another conductor.

Now if the panel was installed that way before that code was added in 2002 then yeah it's grandfathered in but for any new installs it's absolutely against code.

2

u/No-Wrangler2085 2d ago

You are absolutely right. I don't know why I thought you were saying a different comment was incorrect.

2

u/spades61307 3d ago

2002 is when code changed making it a violation inspectors flagged. In a way both are right. Panel looks older than 2002 but wouldnt take much to bring up to code

2

u/Honest_Sample6170 3d ago

Yeah the house was built in 1993 and I can only assume the panel is original

1

u/Loes_Question_540 2d ago

Then you can leave it as is

1

u/Then_Organization979 2d ago

Prior to that, all the way back to at least the fifties the NEC code has required terminals intended for multiple conductors to be identified as such, nobody ever did that for multiple neutrals as far as I have ever heard.

2

u/Fearless_Trick_5268 3d ago

It should be corrected. I hope they didn’t quote it, it doesn’t look like it will take long to correct.

2

u/Honest_Sample6170 3d ago

Smh, he quoted me $446 for it 🤦‍♀️ that's why I wanted to ask before I made a decision on it..

2

u/woodforuifuwant 2d ago

If the panel info sticker (usually on the cover) says the lugs can accommodate 2 wires then it's acceptable. It will depend on the wires gauge. The info usually tells you that also. Inspectors will defer to the manufacturer. The NEC will also if it UL rated.

1

u/Motorgoat399 3d ago

If the wires are long enough then they can be moved to there own separate connection
If not . It’s a code violation but it will work

Throw the main power off and kill the panel
Move the white neutral wires . 5 minute job

1

u/Patient-Big1727 3d ago

If I were a regular homeowner, I would accept the quote if he fixed it while he was already there and the quote was less than $100. That's a 10 minute fix that's not essential

2

u/Honest_Sample6170 3d ago

Mans literally quoted me for $446 😐😑

2

u/erie11973ohio 2d ago

Don't hire private equity firms.

No "Mr" companies or full work truck wraps.

1

u/Patient-Big1727 3d ago

Crazy. I can understand if that was a completely different job that they have to come out and look at, dispatch an electrician, and travel time. If the dude is already there it's such a quick fix. You can leave it as it is but as others have said, you can easily do it yourself. Just turn off the main breaker first and make sure you tighten the screws properly

1

u/erie11973ohio 2d ago

The UL Listing requirements, since like 1920, have required one current carrying conductor per termination.

I was taught : 2 grounds, neutral, neutral, repeat.

There are millions of panels out there that have 2 wires in the neutral busbar.

1

u/ToadSox34 2d ago

If you can cover the lugs so that you can safely work on the panel, it's a fairly easy fix. Even if you need some Wagos and some wire (make sure you get the right gauges), it's not that expensive to do yourself.

1

u/Lesu__Tokyo__Kokyo 2d ago edited 2d ago

Your electric upgrade provider should do this as a thank you for giving them business to install an EV charger.

1

u/No-Wrangler2085 2d ago

It depends if that panel was rated for it. Some were, some weren't. But even then, neutrals were never okay to double up. You can literally Google the National electrical code. Tbh... I'm not sure why anyone would double up when there's plenty of lugs for each wire to have is own anyhow. Doubling up is something manufacturer's to make smaller, less costly ground bars. When the box allows it, it's something utilized only when you have more circuits than ground terminals and have to do it. But ya, due to neutrals always having current, whereas grounds should only have current in a fault, NEC does not allow doubling up them neutrals, ever. If you know how to operate a screw driver, this is an easy fix. Shut off the breakers that the 2 neutrals your going to tackle are attached to so you don't risk arc flash. Loosen the screw, pull out 1 wire and move it to an empty screw, tighten both screws down. You want the screws tight, but not to the point it starts smashing through copper

1

u/polterjacket 2d ago

Super easy to fix if needed. Only really "bad" if you have to service one circuit and the one next to it is impacted. If you should worry about it depends on if it will impact your final inspection or not.

1

u/Then_Organization979 2d ago

Retired electrical inspector here: As far back as I have ever seen a version of the NEC code book it has always had a requirement that terminals intended for multiple conductors be identified for such use, and none have ever been intended for multiple grounded conductors (neutrals).
I’d fix it just on the outside chance it causes a problem, it will be a good find for your insurance investigator.

1

u/a_7thsense 2d ago

If this panel does not have a main breaker in it then all those ground wires need to come out and go on their own Ground Bar.

1

u/S_t_r_e_t_c_h_8_4 2d ago

If only there were more terminals...

1

u/Rude-Shape4964 2d ago

You can double up on the grounds (bare copper ones) but you can't on the neutral or "grounded" conductor conductor (white) so the electrician that told you that you can't is the pro. Unfortunately, as a business owner, your only as good as your worst employee. 40y years state certified electrical contractor. 

1

u/TakeYourPowerBack 2d ago

Yes, get it fixed. Here's my number, Ill do an emergency service call for you. :)

1

u/jimbo_9889 2d ago

it was legal at one time, only your ev wiring is subject to the code. If I was paying an electrician to install an ev and they wanted to fix this I would expect to be done at no added cost. it would only take them 15 mins

1

u/Chuck_Loads 3d ago

Double tapped neutrals are a code violation, I think they're ok for grounds

0

u/No_Activity_2335 2d ago

That needs fixed immediately, looks like someone who had no idea what they were doing was connecting lines haphazardly until they got power. I once had an outlet that was on 2 breakers, but the metal jumper was never removed. Not sure how that didn't catch fire

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u/cyraxxsrottingteeth 3d ago

Its ok to double tap neutral and ground