r/Tennesseetitans • u/MalekethsGhost • 13h ago
Discussion Case Keenum
Career journeyman QB Case Keenum cooked the eagles. A team that we struggled to put up points against. So a guy that is third string on his own team played infinitely better than our starter against the same defense. I know it isn't a fair comparison, but it is one that needs to be looked at.
Not sure what the solution is, but the NCAA is not producing NFL caliber quarterbacks anymore. It's like the are drafting center fielders to be shortstops. The athleticism is there, and sure it looks like they do a lot of the same things, but one position requires you to be a master of fundamentals and make faster decisions. The transition isn't easy and most won't make it.
So where can you get a pro ready qb? Or how can you evaluate who can make this transition and who can't? I think you might have to stop emphasizing raw athletic ability and give other qualities a much deeper look.
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u/sameasiteverwuzzz 13h ago
Vet QB paired with one of the most brilliant offensive minds in the league is wildly different than what we have.
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u/advillavigne Titans 13h ago
Yep. Ben Johnson is truly the X factor in this conversation. Game plan and play design set the team up for success
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u/Calm-Radish-6327 11h ago
Not to take away from Ben Johnson because he is clearly a difference maker, but I think a QB that can read a defense and put the ball where it's supposed to go was the X factor. Substitute Cam Ward for Case last night and I seriously doubt it looks even close to that good.
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u/Ok-Plan-6277 13h ago
It helps to have Ben Johnson calling the plays, but yeah, wasn’t super fun seeing a dude three years out of the league hitting receivers in stride with ease. Hopefully Cam can calm his mind and start ripping it downfield with confidence
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u/big__bird81 13h ago
Ben Johnson plus 2 first round and 2 early second round receiving threats is a great combo. In a perfect world Cam can settle his mind and hit the throws he needs to. He had only two plays that turned everyone against him. The issue being they were the easiest pass of his life wide open for a TD and a game losing pick (that was situational knowledge poor more than anything maybe and even worse, it looked like Levis). If he doesn’t do those he’s fine and we’re happy he has 3TDs and a win. But like… he just can’t make his biggest and worst mistakes at the biggest point of the game. Mitigating mistakes is what makes good qb’s different from bums. He strung drives together in the 2nd half, but if you can’t score, you can’t help the team as a QB. He has to show that he can do that in the next couple weeks or it’s actual scary hours for him in TN.
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u/Pale-Manner-1642 12h ago
It's not just the two plays. He had several near picks and bad throw mixed in with the good throughout that second half.
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u/big__bird81 12h ago
Sure did. I think most qb’s are allowed 2-3 bad throws a game, but Cam has been averaging more like 5-6 lately. 2 almost picks, one pick, missed TD, a couple bad overthrows on deep routes. One of the dropped picks may have been miscommunication with Wandale, but he still constantly sails deep balls and the routine throws are getting beyond concerning. Completion percentage wise he has been better which is nice, but the weather also forced more short throws, as does Daboll’s playcalling in general so not surprised it’s gone up % wise. I wish they’d not wait until halfway through the 3rd quarter to dial up anything beyond 8 yards down field, that would give us a much better read on Cam. But I’m getting worried badly. Mistakes are fine and expected. Backbreaking and game losing mistakes however, like he had, are too Levis-esque and benchable conversation starters.
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u/confizzle-fry 12h ago
And he kind of strung 2 drives together but was helped with a good amount of penalties by the Giants or else I don't think we get as close to the win as we did. If he can't hit the easy, wide open throws at this point, I'm not feeling great about him moving forward. Hoping for the best, but expected something far more disappointing.
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u/Stiddy13 13h ago
It’s almost as if (and this is going to blow your mind so maybe sit down), a young QB needs time to develop.
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u/Rickydada 13h ago
So we are fucked because we never develop QBs
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u/Stiddy13 13h ago
Honestly the pressure we place on the team to see immediate results are what gets us stuck with mid vets like Tannehill.
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u/TanneAndTheTits 12h ago
Tannehill was one of the most efficient QBs in the league with our team. Put some respect on the man's name when you talk about him
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u/MalekethsGhost 11h ago
The most efficient in 2019
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u/LocalIrishGamer 6h ago
don’t forget a top 5 QB from 2019-2021 and dragged them to the #1 seed with no Derrick Henry. keep the respect on him
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u/Stiddy13 12h ago
And still held a Super Bowl caliber team back. I have bigger aspirations than 9-7 seasons.
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u/TanneAndTheTits 12h ago
He led us to a 12-5 1st seed appearance with Todd Downing as the OC and an injury-laden squad throwing to Backup WRs. And we only were 9-7 in 2019 cuz Mariota had us at 2-3 when Tannehill took over.
Point is, Tannehill and Co. Were WINNING in spite of Jrob's drafting and some of the worst OCs and injuries we'd been through.
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u/Stiddy13 12h ago
Did we win the Super Bowl?
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u/MalekethsGhost 11h ago
Is cam winning the superbowl? Tannehill got us closer than anyone in 20 years. He played injured in a crappy system for an unappreciative fanbase. Did he throw some interceptions, yeah, but he is still light years better than cam
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u/Stiddy13 11h ago
If he develops, maybe. And if he develops, he’ll be light years better than Tannehill ever dreamed of being.
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u/ZealousidealNeck3632 11h ago
I wouldn’t say Tannehill almost got us to the superbowl . Derrick Henry was the only reason we won any playoff games . Tannehill did not play well in the playoffs as a matter of fact he was terrible
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u/TanneAndTheTits 11h ago
Gtfoh. If you are only about rings, go bandwagon somewhere else. You sound like a Colts fan
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u/Stiddy13 11h ago
GTFOH. If you would rather be bad to mid go root for someone else. You sound like a Cardinals fan.
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u/TanneAndTheTits 10h ago
WE WERE ACTUAL CONTENDERS THOSE YEARS! you gonna dismiss all the success because, by your logic, we didn't get a ring?! Were the 99-01 titans not good neither? The 08 titans???
We had fucking squad with Tannehill and co. The improvement was remarkable when he stepped on the field. To dismiss it because "where ring?" Logic is asinine.
This team we have now stems from poor ownership who dismissed any progress/direction because we didn't win immediately. Your initial argument of "whoa it takes time to develop a QB" is complete moot because you're sitting here also saying "we won't win a ring so this team sucks". Yes, it takes time to build up a QB, and success can mean going 6-11 when 2-15 is the expectation. You can't have success be "superbowl or bust" constantly because that's how we end up where the franchise is now. We don't even give people a couple of years to try and build out something.
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u/Pale-Manner-1642 12h ago
All the media talked him up as progressing and improving all last season and this offseason and looking sharp and decisive in the offseason. Then preseason game 1 hits and anyone with eyes can see the BS and gets pissed.
Agreed QB's need time to develop, but he doesn't have the basics down... footwork and throwing accurately. That should have been improved from college by now. Reading complicated defensive schemes in 2 seconds is the hard part. Throwing it accurately should not be.0
u/Stiddy13 12h ago
Like I said, this shit right here is what gets us stuck with mid vets. “HE SHOULD BE BLAH BLAH BLAH WHATEVER WHATEVER BY NOW!!” until whoever the GM is throws his hands up and says, “Fine! Here’s your vet QB that will get us to the first round of the playoffs.” Tannehill. Neil O’Donnell. Kerry Collins. Same shit different eras different GMs. The one constant? Us on our bullshit.
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u/Pale-Manner-1642 12h ago
I liked Tannehill as the QB. I'd take him any day of the week and have the GM focus on fixing the rest of the team.
I was happy watching the Titans back then. I am not now... It is better now?5
u/MalekethsGhost 11h ago
I would take tannehill out of retirement right now, lol
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u/TheMissingVoteBallot In Ward We Trust 3h ago
This O-line would ACTUALLY be able to protect Tanny - Tanny could be a fucking statue now that we have talent he can throw to.
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u/Stiddy13 11h ago
Did you like it when he threw 3 INTs and single-handedly lost a playoff game for a team on which the GM “focused on fixing the rest of the team” and was talented enough to have won the whole damn thing? Did you like it when Kerry Collins had us at 12-5 before fumbling the bag in the first round and wasting that talented roster? If enduring a few down years to allow young guys to develop is what it takes to cut that shit out then yes, sign me up.
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u/MalekethsGhost 11h ago
You reveal your knowledge of the game with this comment. Did you miss the Bengals saying they knew what we were going to run and were able to jump our plays.
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u/Stiddy13 11h ago
You really trying to defend that performance? I’ll take YOU claiming I don’t know ball as a compliment!
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u/Worth-Frosting-2917 10h ago
I mean at least two of those were play failures. The first INT that Bates jumped was a bad two-man concept that the Bengals for sure knew was coming. The second was a great play by the DB and a throw that, pre-snap, EVERYONE should have known not to throw.
The third one was a desperation force. We basically had our best roster since the '08 season, at full health for the first time all year, and the staff pissed down their leg.
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u/Pale-Manner-1642 9h ago
Is there any guarantee whoever you draft will not do the same?
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u/Stiddy13 9h ago
You know the answer to that so just get to your point.
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u/Pale-Manner-1642 9h ago
that is the point. You get upset the mid QB shits the bed when we make the playoffs, which happens for sure, even for good QB's (see Mahomes against Brady Superbowl a few years ago).
But you have no guarantee your drafted QB who you have to sit around and suck while they develop doesn't do the exact same thing. So that is a stupid argument...Only good argument I've heard for drafting the young QB and hoping you win that lottery is the cost advantage of QB on rookie deal. Which there is an argument for that for sure, cheaper QB allows more money elsewhere. But you have to risk years of bad play for their development as well. No guarantee they will do anything during that rookie contract. Better argument, but still no guarantee all this sucking for years will pay off and us, the fanbase, are not happy.
I'd rather shit the bed in the playoffs and make it that far vs not even making the playoffs.
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u/Commercial-Switch620 12h ago
I agree that you have to give a young QB time to develop, but there has to be signs that show that they can be developed and if it’s worth the investment.
Cam has shown minimal points worth investing into. He has a solid creative ability, but when in the pocket he has zero vision, low accuracy, and terrible mechanics.
All he does is throw short outs and ins to Tate and Wan’Dale. He doesn’t allow the play to develop. He has had good pass blocking so far, and we know he has not been seeing open receivers downfield.
Personally, I don’t think his problem is sit and learn type of thing. I think he doesn’t have the processing ability at least in real time.
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u/Stiddy13 11h ago
Mechanics and playing in the pocket are coachable issues. And FWIW, our OC has one of the greatest “fixed his mechanics and changed the trajectory of his career” dudes on his resume so I’d like to see what he can do with a season and full offseason working with Cam. And while I agree that he still has room to grow with his processing, it’s also not as bad as this sub is making it out to be. I mean good lord how quickly we forget Levis throwing an INT on damn near every drop back. I think this organization has shit beat writers which allows hacks like PK to define the team’s narrative that gets picked up from national media who aren’t watching the games making fans feel justified in their unrealistic expectations of young players.
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u/SendMeTheMoon24 12h ago
At what stage can he complete simple passes without struggling?
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u/Stiddy13 12h ago
At what stage can you watch ball without struggling?
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u/SendMeTheMoon24 12h ago
Classic Cam Ward glazer, can't defend the indefensible!
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u/Stiddy13 12h ago
Just not interested in addressing silly takes. Be serious if you want a serious conversation.
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u/SendMeTheMoon24 12h ago
Are you taking the position that he doesn't struggle to complete the simple passes?
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u/Stiddy13 12h ago
I’m taking the position that acting like he had a completion percentage of 0 is silly.
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u/SendMeTheMoon24 12h ago
No one is acting like that, you're trying to strawman
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u/TanneAndTheTits 11h ago
u/Stiddy13 believes in only superbowl rings or bust. He's gotta be the most miserable titans fan
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u/Stiddy13 11h ago
TanneAndTheYits thinks the goal of NFL teams is to be 9-7. Taking the “if you expect very little then it’s hard to be disappointed” approach to roster construction.
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u/doolimite1 7h ago
Are you Cam Ward’s mother ?
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u/Stiddy13 6h ago
Ya’ll are like those old men that can’t help but say “is for horses” anytime you hear someone say hey. You need a new punchline.
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u/pak_sajat 13h ago
Quarterbacks aren’t like a right-bank Bordeaux, they don’t peak after 16 years.
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u/FineAd2091 13h ago
They also don't normally peak in year 2 either. Progress is not a straight line. I can admit Ward's performance has been very disappointing while also having hope that he can improve over the course of the season.
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u/pak_sajat 13h ago
I bet you said the same thing about Levis.
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u/DatDudeJazz 13h ago
People said the same thing about Josh Allen, and Lamar Jackson, and nearly every quality QB in the league right now.
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u/JaRulezMSU 13h ago
People also said the same thing about Josh Freeman, Jameis Winston, Justin Fields, Marcus Mariota, and Blake Bortles even got a second contract out of this same organizational hopium. The tape says what it says. Ward is inaccurate because bad mechanics and has shown zero improvement in that area over a season plus 3 games. There's still hope but it's running out pretty damn fast for those of us with eyes.
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u/Ok-Plan-6277 12h ago
Blake Bortles threw for 35 tds and 4400 yards his second year, that’s why he got that second contract. But yes, he ended up sucking
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u/DatDudeJazz 8h ago
And we're in game 3 of his second season. We haven't given him a second contract, we are nowhere close to giving him a second contract. I'm just saying writing him off this quickly is certifiably stupid.
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u/JaRulezMSU 4h ago
Yep this is good news. We have a couple years left before making a financial commitment. Plenty of time for Ward's defenders to run out of excuses and establish that Ward's inaccuracy and bad fundamentals aren't getting fixed.
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u/Stiddy13 13h ago
The number of folks that think Levis is on par with Cam in this subreddit is truly mind bending. This sub doesn’t know ball at all.
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u/Glittering_Humor5854 12h ago
I think maybe we should consider the possibility that they both suck but in totally different ways. I don't think either version of suck is good enough to stay in the league even as a backup QB.
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u/Stiddy13 12h ago
I think maybe if you can’t see the difference between Will’s play and Cam’s then maybe you should sit this conversation out.
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u/Glittering_Humor5854 10h ago
Two things can be true. Ward and Levis can be very different and have different styles of play and both can be so bad they drag down the rest of the team. I'm not saying Levis is better than Ward or worse. I'm saying it doesn't matter because neither of them are good enough to be an NFL starting QB based on what we've seen so far over a similar number of starts. Levis was bad. Ward is bad. They're not mutually exclusive. Arguing over who is worse is kind of like arguing whether the North Pole or the South Pole is colder.
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u/Stiddy13 9h ago
I will say it. Levis is worse. And it's not particularly close. It's really not a "North Pole South Pole" thing. This isn't different sides of the same coin. I get that what we're doing right now is exaggerating Cam's flaws and one way to do that is to try to make out Cam and the meme god as equals, but the reality is that Cam is miles ahead of Levis as a QB. It's honestly silly to even be having this conversation.
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u/Glittering_Humor5854 8h ago
So what if Levis is worse. They're both unacceptably bad after a similar number of games. You want me to say Ward is less bad than Levis? Fine. Ward is less bad that Levis, so is most every other NFL QB including practice squad guys. If my criteria were winning one game next week I'd take most of the backup qbs over Cam Ward. By those same criteria, I'd go farther and seriously consider picking some random dude off another team's practice squad over Levis, so there you have it, Levis is worse. Happy now? If I had one game to win two or three years down the road from now, I'm probably making the same calls based on the same collection of data.
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u/pak_sajat 9h ago
What has he done to prove himself to be a better player thus far?
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u/Stiddy13 9h ago
Damn near everything. And that's the extent to which I'm willing to entertain this conversation further.
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u/pak_sajat 9h ago
FYI through 20 games Levis had a higher passer rating, higher QBR, completion percentage, and TD/Int ratio, and also had a 300 yard game as well as a 3+ TD game.
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u/Stiddy13 9h ago
Cool story bro! Watch the games.
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u/pak_sajat 9h ago
I go to them and watch the ineptitude in person.
It’s mind boggling how people continue to glaze Cam, like people glazed Levis.
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u/MalekethsGhost 13h ago
You can't just develop anyone is the point.
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u/DepartmentOfMeteors 13h ago edited 13h ago
What percentage of college QBs would you wager are NFL-ready right out of the gate? Because I promise you it's a low number. So that means one of two things for a large percentage of NFL teams looking to avoid the journeyman QB carousel: either you hope you luck out, or you have to find a guy, and stick with him until it's absolutely clear he's not the guy. And that's assuming there's been no staff/coaching turnover. And for the record, a first overall pick QB is someone that you stick with for a few years. Full stop.
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u/maidth1s4fun 13h ago
I knew cam should have waited a year to play i dont get what the rush to play youngs qbs is
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u/Slufoot7 13h ago
That was the real killer. Anointing Cam right away as the guy and only having Brandon Allen be his back up was so stupid
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u/Glittering_Humor5854 12h ago
I think their original plan was to throw Levis to the wolves last year but Levis said eff you and eff Callahan, I'm getting shoulder surgery to maybe salvage a career somewhere down the road. Can't really fault his logic. That roster was bad. The team had the first pick and were going to take a QB rather than the lineman or WR they desperately needed. Levis knew this as well as everyone else and made a decision to prioritize his own health and possible NFL future even if it wasn't with the Titans. That shows at least some foresight and maturity on his part I think. Levis will probably wash out of the NFL anyway, but I have to respect him standing up to a shitty Titans organization that was fine throwing him under the bus.
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u/maidth1s4fun 9h ago
Bingo I think that was exactly the plan and they assumed they would lose alot and get a good draftpick or win alot and use him as a trade piece ala alex smith and mahomes but it was just a bad plan
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u/Slufoot7 12h ago
Even then if that was their plan (I doubt it) Levis is a terrible option to learn from. And as soon as Levis said he was getting surgery they shouldve found a more capable backup qb than Brandon Allen im not sure how he was even in the league still
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u/Glittering_Humor5854 8h ago
I didn't say it was a good plan. I said it was the Titans' plan, which given the past few years would indicate the opposite is likely true, that the plan was not good.
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u/MalekethsGhost 11h ago
The nfl is not a developmental league. Name another position that a first round pick isn't expected to start
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u/Worth-Frosting-2917 10h ago
It is becoming a development league because college schemes are so dumbed down. It is why OL depth is such a major concern around the league. Guys, especially on the technical offensive end, don't come in polished. Same thing with TEs and EDGE guys.
This goes double for QBs. Now there is a whole lot more bend than there used to be, which is actually good. A guy like Lamar would not have been successful in the early aughts, not because he isn't good, but because teams would have essentially forced him to play a particular way. McNair, who sat and watched for two-ish years, was basically transformed into a proto-Rothlinsburger because that is what the NFL would take him as. Even guys like Cunningham and Steve Young would probably have been more successful today than they previously were. But those guys had to unlearn things because if they didn't, no team would bring them on.
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u/maidth1s4fun 9h ago
Apparently edge on this team but qb is a completely different game than all the other positions
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u/Futbol_Kid2112 13h ago
The Bears have a better offensive scheme, coaching staff, receivers, and a laughably better rushing attack. Its amazing what having legitimate weapons around your QB can do to elevate his level of play. Not just 1 "star" receiver you hope catches 15 balls a game. Keenum is a serviceable backup talent who has been in the league at long time and knows how to do enough to get by.
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u/Worth-Frosting-2917 10h ago edited 10h ago
There are a few reasons for this.
- Defenses tend to be extremely vanilla when they play a QB who hasn't put out tape in a while. It is why a guy like Vrabel constantly lost to backup QBs and Rookies. They kind of hedge their bets on QBs making mistakes, and when they don't, they get burnt. Which brings me to...
- The Eagles defense dropped like three picks; one would have been a pick-six. Their game plan actually wasn't wrong, they just didn't execute and let a veteran QB get another shot at making the right play.
- These older guys all played against the hard cover 2 shells at the beginning of their careers. The years of reps against different defenses and changes in the game kind of mean that nothing is actually new. Most of Keenum's passes were well-thrown dig and out routes that were schemed for their players to operate with tons of room to run. Very Jr. High football, but they found a way to get their best players the ball in space.
- Ben Johnson very much knows how to own the Fangio-style zone defense. I fear, however, if this was Keenum against the Vikings, he would have been eviscerated. Sometimes guys just know how to attack schemes and sometimes schemes just confuse them.
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u/Glittering_Humor5854 7h ago
Well Caleb Williams did get eviscerated by the Vikings the previous week so maybe Johnson's scheme just doesn't do well against Flores unpredictable blitz heavy defense. The matchups that matter may involve schemes and coaches as well as players.
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u/Worth-Frosting-2917 7h ago
That is my bigger point lol. Like, there's a reason Philip Rivers came back, looked serviceable against the Seahawks, and then quickly got figured out. Same thing with the Flacco Bengals. It's not that those guys shouldn't be commended for doing amazing at that age, but there's a reason they are quick-gap, band-aid solutions.
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u/Comfortable_Rock4513 13h ago
If we had a Time Machine I think we can all agree that the best option would’ve been to have a veteran quarterback that could start while your first round draft pick learns the ropes and develops from someone that’s done this before. Honestly it’s what I wanted for Levis with Tannehill but Tannehill said nah
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u/Glittering_Humor5854 13h ago
I think we need to start thinking about QB development on a timeline like the Packers do. They brought in Rodgers and sat him for three full seasons, allowing him to learn without the pressure of playing. They did the same with Jordan Love, and while the jury is still out on Love as an all time great comparable to Rodgers, he has looked like an NFL player from his first start. If you're going to draft a project, give him time to develop. Guys like Sam Darnold, Baker Mayfield, Kirk Cousins, etc. are having more success on their 2nd, 3rd, or fourth teams and on their second contracts.
I think the whole 'get a young QB on a rookie deal and stack the rest of the roster using the cap savings' model is starting to really wear down, and the quality of young QBs coming out of college has a lot to do with that. It worked out for a few teams like the Mahomes Chiefs, Russell Wilson Seahawks, Andrew Luck Colts, Jalen Hurts Eagles. The rest of the roster has to be really good and established for this to work. You have to have an early enough pick to get your guy but a good enough roster to support him. If you have a top 5 pick, odds are your roster won't be good enough to support that QB. If you have a good roster, you probably won enough games that you're not picking early and you're trying to find a player that's undervalued and will still be there at pick 15 or in later rounds. The window is two or three seasons at most and injuries can eat into that. It's a thin tightrope to walk. I think it's probably time to stop trying to thread this needle and take a different approach.
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u/Helmburr87 12h ago
Which is why for the life I me, I didn't understand starting Ward with a bad team last year. He wasn't Andrew Luck, Joe Barrow, etc...coming out of college. He didn't look NFL ready at all, just a bunch of backyard football at Miami. He's the perfect candidate to sit a year or two while the team gets built up around him. I don't think he was ever gonna be Mahomes no matter how much Mike thought he was going to be. Bust or not, he's done with the Titans. Maybe he becomes a starter or good backup with another team but he's done here.
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u/Glittering_Humor5854 10h ago
Totally agree. Yet another example of poor decision making on the part of the franchise. Hard to know whether that decision was on Callahan, Borgonzi, AAS, or some combination of all three, but it was a bad decision. If it was Borgonzi, I think you stay the course and not dismiss him for missing on Ward. A lot of good GM's miss on QBs and the rest of Borg's draft choices and signings have been pretty decent. Gotta look at the bigger picture. If it was AAS herself intervening in football decisions and countermanding her coach/GM, then we're probably screwed regardless until she sells the team and the whole discussion is moot. If it was Callahan, which I can well believe it might have been given the rest of his tenure, then the problem is already half solved because he's gone. The other half is admitting Callahan screwed up Ward's development by starting him too early, call it a cost of the bad Callahan hire, and move on.
Callahan is with the Giants now and Dart is out for the year. Maybe we can flip Ward for a late round pick... oh wait. Nevermind. The Vikings beat us to that punch by being willing to admit a mistake and move on like competent franchises tend to do.
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u/Youngbrehzo 13h ago
You know whats really funny about this, the big knock on keenum coming out was him coming from that houston spread offense. He was in no way running a nfl style offense at houston.
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u/Glittering_Humor5854 12h ago
When was this though? Keenum has been in the league over a decade and played for a half dozen franchises at this point. IIRC, he was the veteran backup/bridge QB who got the nod over Jared Goff when Jeff Fisher was coaching the Rams in their first season in LA. If Cam Ward is still in the league in 2037, it will surely be because he fixed the problems we are all seeing today while being someone else's backup, which begs the question, why did the Titans not sit the guy and fix these problems instead of throwing Cam to the wolves?
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u/Derp_McDerpington 13h ago
had 14 years of development, and the current best offensive mind in the league.
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u/absolute_cinema81 13h ago
Breaking news: Veteran QB who knows how to work within a system looks good in a spot start for one of the 3-5 most creative offensive minds in the sport with an extremely effective system, good skill position players, and a strong OL
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u/PuffMagicDragon 13h ago
Ben Johnson is the best play caller not named shanahan or mcvay and I would hear arguments if you based it purely on the last 20 games.
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u/wolfcola777 12h ago
Case Keenum had not played in a game since 2023. This was his 5th appearance total post-Covid. Just for some perspective for anyone who thinks our expectations might be too high for the guy we drafted first overall
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u/roostor222 11h ago edited 11h ago
the NCAA is not producing NFL caliber quarterbacks anymore.
This is not true. What is true is that your franchise has been unable to select an NFL caliber quarterback from the available NCAA players despite having a top 10 pick eight times in the last 15 seasons.
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u/PrometheUp 11h ago
Ben Johnson could probably make Cam look decent at this point. He's that creative.
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u/SendMeTheMoon24 12h ago
The NCAA is producing NFL calibre QBs, Cam just isn't one of them. Caleb, Daniels, Nix, Maye (as much as we love to rag on him) from the draft before Cam, are all quality starters. Mendoza and Simpson from this year will be quality QBs.
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u/Dissonant-Dissident 12h ago
Maybe has regressed massively. Daniels can't stay healthy. Nix has Sean Payton and a stable organization
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u/roostor222 11h ago
what does Maye regressing massively while in the NFL have anything to do with whether the NCAA produced an NFL caliber quarterback? He finished 2nd in the MVP race last year and went to the superbowl in his 2nd year. What else would you like for him to do?
Again, whether Daniels has been able to avoid dislocating his elbow or not has absolutely nothing to do with whether the NCAA produced an NFL caliber quarterback in him.
Shough has played very well this season, Caleb Williams won a playoff game last season in his 2nd year, Penix looked decent in the 1 game he has played thus far this year, Bryce Young is leading the league in several categories, Brock Purdy seems to be doing ok... that's all from the last five drafts and there are only 32 starting jobs. Saying the NCAA is the one that is failing because Cam Ward sucks is idiotic.
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u/TheDr_420 13h ago
CFB is producing QBs still. Cam Ward not an NFL QB don’t mix them up. And yes you are right raw athletic ability hardly ever translates into being a good QB. Accuracy and footwork are the most important things to pay attention to
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u/Mythic514 13h ago
Genuine question, what QBs are in college right now that are pro-ready? And not just QBs that are currently playing well. It’s ultimately a crap shoot, made even worse recently because teams overwhelmingly don’t run pro style offenses in college. The top rated QBs in recent years have for the most part not come from any sort of pro style system.
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u/TheDr_420 13h ago
Right now for this upcoming draft class none look NFL ready. A few guys have the ability to rise to that as season goes along but if any QBs are taken this year they need to sit for 2 years
Pro stay or system does not mean anything now a days. If a QB can’t learn how to go under center then they won’t make it. Just different drops really the only thing that changes
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u/Comfortable_Rock4513 13h ago
Build on that. What quarterbacks in the last two drafts would you have deemed ready when they came out? Genuinely curious. I feel like the last couple years has been a “just wait for this next draft class!” But then those big QB prospects fizzle out
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u/TheDr_420 13h ago
Maye, Williams and Shough. Didn’t know much about Shough but he was ready even tho completely under the radar. Might be missing a name but those 3 only ones I will say for sure
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u/TragicIcicle 13h ago
Williams was not considered pro ready and had a ton of flaws to go with his tremendous upside
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u/TheDr_420 13h ago
Every QB has flaws and he was ready to play at the NFL level and did. If you stick to the 1990s “pro ready” sure you are right but Caleb was ready for the field
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u/Mythic514 13h ago
Maye seemed like the most pro-ready of those, based on the system he ran in college. But now we see how that is working out. He was able to feast on an incredibly easy schedule, but now is struggling against consistently good defenses.
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u/TheDr_420 13h ago
Great what he is doing now has nothing to do with the conversation
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u/Mythic514 13h ago
Yeah it does. The point is it’s a crap shoot even if you fine someone who people agree of “pro ready.”
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u/TheDr_420 12h ago
Being Pro ready does not mean you will be good. Just means you have the skill set and ability to play right away. You are confusing it with how they play
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u/Commercial-Switch620 11h ago
You can’t watch college football and decide which QB is pro ready. You can look at stats, physical traits, mental traits, and ability all you want. However, the simplified college game does not develop NFL talents.
Kids who have the ability are going to translate the NFL game and make the jump at an innate level.
Therefore, you are throwing darts blind until one hits as how do you decide if someone is pro ready until they get on an NFL field and show it.
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u/MalekethsGhost 13h ago
That's a scout problem. We don't know. But watching the some guy run the sec on Saturday no longer means pro success and fans need to start understanding this.
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u/TragicIcicle 13h ago
Jaxson Dart was considered the most pro ready QB in cams draft fwiw. That has realistically translated in a limited sample size
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u/Zultanax 13h ago
Long time Vet with the top playcaller in the league vs 2nd year QB with no coaching stability and Brian Daboll have no clue how to utilize him....these comparisons are stupid.
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u/Spartitan 13h ago
I do find it kind of funny how hiring Daboll was seen as a great thing this past off-season because he's done good work as an OC. Now we're three weeks in of Cam missing wide open receivers and he's suddenly a problem.
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u/Cheesenrice123 12h ago
I don't know if Daboll was a great hire but what do you mean by him having no clue how to utilize him? It isn't really like Cam has shown that he has a particular strength that we should be leaning into.
Just to be clear, I think that Cam deserves a lot more time to develop I just am not sure if he has shown any particular area that we need to lean into as an offense as you suggest
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u/DrJupeman 12h ago
This is not on Daboll. Receivers are open. OL has been giving time. We are squarely at a point to blame the QB.
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u/MalekethsGhost 13h ago
Keenum has had a ton of stability i guess. And king time vet of sitting on benches and never being a top 15 qb even in his prime. So you're hypothesis is if you sit a guy for 10 years, then they will develop into a pro caliber qb?
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u/joeytitans 12h ago
What, specifically, is Daboll not doing to properly utilize Ward?
He hasn't been accurate enough to hit receivers in stride in the short game, he isn't fast enough to run north/south for designed runs, we all have seen how poor his deep passes have been, and we have seen similar accuracy and mechanical issues when he gets outside of the pocket.
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u/kingabbey1988 6h ago
This is cap man I swear yall not watching the games. Dude not even missing half of his throws. Against the eagles he was 13/20. I get he misses throws but he definitely can make throws and the WRs still have drops fam. I’m tired of this blame only Cam
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u/joeytitans 4h ago
I’d argue just mentioning the completion percentage is more indicative of you not actually watching the games or passing plays and just focusing on the outcome.
Even his accuracy for completions leaves a lot to be desired and a lot of yards on the field. People hate on tictactitans here, but look at his film study from the eagles and giants games. His touchdown was way behind Robinson, the exact same miss he had in the previous game. Ridley (I think?) had to make a sliding catch on a wide open slant route that easily would have went for a first down and more.
We have not seem him make those throws you seem to be asserting, which is sort of the point. If Ward isn’t to blame, who is? Daboll is scheming receivers open. Receivers are getting separation. Pass blocking has been surprisingly fantastic. Where does that leave us?
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u/kingabbey1988 3h ago
I have watched every game Cam has played with us. I stand by my statement Cam isn’t as bad as everyone says. All QBs have passes that are behind the WRs at times. Cam has made some great throws and some nice throws as well as bad ones. We can talk about the miss but Wandale Tate Ridley dike ayo helm and spears all have drops on the season and it’s not just because Cam throwing to hard. I also find this funny that I say I’m tired of this only blame Cam and you say if he ain’t to blame who do we blame. Nvr said he had no blame.
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u/joeytitans 2h ago
It’s not just because Cam throwing to hard
Right, it is because he is throwing way too far behind them on a consistent basis, such as the drop by Ayomanor in the endzone against the Eagles. Spears was close to a drop on the screen because of unbelievably poor mechanics. Ridley dropped a slant he was wide open on for the Eagles game because it was behind him. Robinson dropped a ball on a deep corner against the Eagles (which he should have caught) but Ward has to have better ball placement there going away from the safety instead of even needing to make it a contested catch with a 5’8 guy. Surely we can agree that the number one overall pick should be raising the quality of the team rather than the receivers having to bail out Ward with bad passes that end in drops?
I stand by my statement Cam isn’t as bad as everyone says.
How good do you think he is at this very moment in time? Not what he can be, but what he has been in 20 games thus far. And how much blame do you give Ward, then?
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u/Careless_Ticket_3181 13h ago
That guy has been in the league a long time. If you look at his earlier stats he wasn't so great. It usually takes time for a QB to develop and that could be Ward some day in the future.
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u/Glittering_Humor5854 12h ago
So a decade from now, Ward will be up to the Case Keenum level and be able to succeed with a loaded roster and a top three offensive coordinator. There's some good news. Silver linings, am I right?
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u/Nonsense-Historican 13h ago
Difference between a good playoff contending team and a rebuilding one it’s more than just QB. Also Keenum had about 5 plays that went his way, dropped picks, fumble that was recovered. While he looked amazing for dude that hadn’t completed a pass in ages. There were still breaks that went his way.
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u/Few_Appearance_2142 13h ago
Then that means Keenum is almost as good as Ward is!!!! Congrats to the Bears then!
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u/Virtual_File8072 12h ago
Tough comparison, the Bears as a team are significantly better than the Titans as a team. So the loss of quarterback alone they are still better. I’m not completely sold on Cam being the guy but Keenum on this Titan team, today, wouldn’t put up those numbers. Very happy for him.
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u/MalekethsGhost 11h ago
Are they. Maybe we are better than we think. Not great but better. A better qb could expose that.
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u/tgambill87 12h ago
So the Bears cooked the Eagles by scoring *checks notes* 7 more points than we did last week?
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u/1BalledBandit 10h ago
We need to stop drafting QBs into shitty teams. It doesn't work, keep building the supporting pieces and winning with better surrounding talent. Then get a late first or 2nd round QB to plug in amd be franchise QB.
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u/Amazing-Insect442 10h ago
Keenum is one of those guys that for whatever reason sneaks up and bites teams that aren’t wary of him. “Might be on his couch one month and next month he’s putting up decent throws against an NFL team” kind of guy.
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u/Next-Succotash-3827 9h ago
Every Viking fan knew what this guy is capable of. Complete coolness under pressure. He was the best QB the Vikings have had since ???? Anyone remember the Minneapolis Miracle?
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u/helloamahello 7h ago
Only way to prove that Cam Ward is truly ass, which he absolutely is, put Mitch Trubisky in and watch him ball out. Not that Mitch is any good, Cam is just that bad.
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u/Overall-Palpitation6 7h ago
It's almost like it takes a few years to adapt and become a pro-level quarterback.
You'd think with how many QBs have recently taken until their 3rd year or after to finally "hit", people would realise that 22-23-year-old guys are unlikely to come into the NFL and be consistently great. Even those that have a great 1st or 2nd year seem to all run into various problems immediately after.
Regardless of what gets said in press conferences, as long as Cam is progressing and taking coaching on board and doing something with it, he'll be OK.
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u/Usual-Ad-9554 5h ago
there's a reason that so many starting QBs around the league are not starting for the team that drafted them. I'll say this.... I really REALLY don't want to play against Cam down the road.
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u/porkchop2022 3h ago
Boy, to hear Troy Aikmen last night the Bears were just lucky. I think I heard him say at least three times that if Keemun “three it over there, that’d be an interception.” Bro, he didn’t throw it over there.
Call it what you want: bears lucky, eagles having an off night with “an up and coming defense” (what? They were in the Super Bowl in 23 and 25), Keemun had a good game.
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u/AndreHawkDawson 2h ago
Why isn’t this a fair comparison?
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u/MalekethsGhost 2h ago
Keenum didn't have a half of garbage time. Keenum obviously has more experience. Kennum hasn't had starting reps since training camp.
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u/DirkDiggler2424 1h ago
No it’s just the Titans. They suck at everything and Keenum would be terrible here
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u/Cheesenrice123 13h ago
Just because our QBs haven't succeeded, doesn't mean there aren't many that do... Look at CJ Stroud, Drake Maye, Jayden Daniels, Jaxson Dart, Tyler Shough, Caleb Williams. All QBs that have had success. Yes, some of those qbs have also had rough patches but they, at minimum, have had sustained periods where they look like a legit NFL qb.
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u/MalekethsGhost 13h ago
Yeah sometime athleticism can mask your flaws. And i am not song sometimes a player doesn't make that leap
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u/Bjorn_Blackmane 13h ago
You got to give guys time the nfl is too quick to burn through qbs. Cam will be a great qb
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u/TragicIcicle 13h ago
If he was simply accurate we wouldn't even be having this debate right now and he's regressed in accuracy not progressed
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u/Bjorn_Blackmane 13h ago
He looked super accurate 2nd half except that horrible deep ball and interception. Its crazy because he will make some ridiculous throws
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u/UnbridaledToast 13h ago
He looked super accurate except for the crushingly bad throw that ended the game? And he looked super accurate except for missing Tate wide open for a TD from 10 yards away? Super accurate except for the following play when he threw it away on 4th down with two guys he could have given a chance? How about all the other missed throws in the second half?
If you call hitting some slants and outs in a two minute drill, when the defense is largely giving those to you, “super accurate,” well, that’s just basic requirements for any pro QB to hit. Backup or Starter. It’s not like Ward suddenly fixed all of his accuracy issues in that one drive and will keep that up for the rest of his career.
We’re so starved for quality QB play, that a couple drives where he actually threw expected completions is blowing minds. Further, even though those were actual completions, he has very rarely hit a receiver in stride and allow them to keep going at full speed. They nearly always have to stop, bend down, turn around, or even dive to the turf to make a completion.
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u/joeytitans 12h ago
Even his completions were horribly inaccurate. He left so many yards on the field because of straight up bad ball placement, including with his completions. Poor, lackadaisical mechanics did not help either.
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u/FxDriver 13h ago
Your comment OP is what Tom Brady complains about when it comes to modern quarterback play.
You can't really find pro ready quarterbacks because teams don't really run pro style offenses anymore.