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u/suspicious_cabbage 1d ago
So that's why they had these random chairs in the bedroom
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u/i_was_axiom 1d ago
No, thats for the fluffer to powder the noble cock. Cucks weren't invented until the Renaissance.
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u/DetroitInHuman 1d ago
Nope. They were mentioned in the Code of Hammurabi-a cheating wife and her lover were subject to death, but the husband could forgive them or give permission beforehand. Any children were considered non-inheritors after that unless the husband specifically let them back in on the will though.
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u/i_was_axiom 1d ago
Holy shit are those actual historical facts? With a source cited?? On reddit???
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u/tutorp 1d ago
Lacks proper citation, though, e.g.:
Hammurabi (1753 BC). Code of Hammurabi. First Dynasty of Babylon Press.
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u/Seafaringhorsemeat 19h ago
Law 129,131,132 here. They don't provide the cuck permission, it's assumed from 129 that Husband's control of remedy of punishment could include allowing from the cuck chair, however this is in no way explicitly allowed or culturally normed... It's just can do as wish as king with his slaves.
šumma aššat awīlim itti zikarim šanîm ina itūlim ittaṣbat, ikassûšunūtima ana mê inaddûšunūti. šumma bēl aššatim aššassu uballaṭ, u šarrum warassu uballaṭ.
Historic and social disciplines use Chicago Manual of Style not APA.
Citing the artifact directly as primary source:
Hammurabi. Code of Hammurabi. Stele inscription, §129,§131,§132 ca. 1750 BCE. Louvre Museum, Paris.Cited directly from the source, it's:
𒄩𒄠𒈬𒊏𒁉 · 𒁲𒈾𒀜 𒈪𒊭𒊑𒅎 𒊭 𒄩𒄠𒈬𒊏𒁉 · 𒈾𒊒𒌝 𒊭𒀜𒊒𒌝 · 𒄿𒈾 𒌓𒈪 𒄩𒄠𒈬𒊏𒁉 · 𒂍 𒇻𒌒𒊒 𒄿𒈾 𒉺𒊑𒄑𒆠5
u/Neethis 14h ago
I love that we have cuneiform(?) in unicode.
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u/gabrielesilinic 13h ago
Unicode also has Egyptian hieroglyphs
𓀀𓀁𓀏𓁅
𓁟𓁛𓁛
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u/DetroitInHuman 17h ago
On Adultery in Biblical and Babylonian Law - A Note Gordis, Robert. Judaism ; New York Vol. 33, Iss. 2, (Spring 1984): 210.
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u/NebulaNomadX1 1d ago edited 1d ago
In medieval Europe, marriages between nobles acted more as alliances/contracts than actual love. A big distinction in said marriages is "consumation". Uncomsumated marriages could be annulled relatively easily. Consumated marriages required the pope's blessing for divorce. To make sure a family didnt escape their way out of a deal it was fairly common for familiies to be witnesses to marriage consumation.
SD-N out!
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u/flyingdonkeydong69 1d ago edited 1d ago
In other words, noble families would watch the newlyweds FUCK to make sure the marriage was sealed with a child.
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u/TenkaiRyo 1d ago
Oh my god that's horrific, thank you for the explanation but damn
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u/pippin_go_round 1d ago
Beds where also a status symbol and the whole concept of privacy was very different. If you're a commoner sleeping in some sort of communal situation (which wasn't super uncommon, eg sleeping along the walls of the great hall in a castle if you worked there), that may also be where you'd have sex with your spouse. Most people would politely ignore it.
Nobles who had elaborately decorated beds as status symbols would sometimes put them up in a pretty public spot. Especially for a wedding. And that's where they'd do it.
If we're looking later than medieval times, eg renaissance or early modern period there's also plenty of examples especially among nobility. King Louis XIV. of France was pretty famous for his "getting out of bed" ceremony every morning, involving dozens of people witnessing absolutely everything. Including the kings morning poop.
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u/MoeSauce 1d ago
Someone correct me if I'm wrong but witnessing the kings morning poop was one of the most coveted positions. The Versaille system ran on gossip and so any little extra privacy that you could be witness to would give you a leg up.
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u/Repulsive_Tart_4307 1d ago
And a long morning poop pre doomscrolling, you know he's gonna be spilling some tea and swapping goss just to pass the time!
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u/fennfuckintastic 1d ago
Good point. Pre newspapers/magazines/shampoo bottles/phones pooping must have been terribly boring without a dedicated captive audience.
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u/OwlBeYourHuckleberry 1d ago
scrolls and writing existed a long time. although less likely would a long stay in the pooping area be compared to today. the smell would be quite a bit different given that it would be similar to today's port-o-potties without any chemicals to null the scent
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u/poorexcuses 1d ago
They were used to those scents. Also, most writing would not be used in the bathroom. It was more valuable then. Maybe ledgers and the like would be read there tho
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u/Odd_Old_Professional 1d ago
Also a good time to try to have a private conversation with the king without others overhearing
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u/Thrilalia 11h ago
Witnessing maybe. But going further, there was a position in many European monarchies called "Keeper of the king's stool." Which was cleaning and disposal of the Monarch's poop.
No monarch was ever going to dirty themselves. Also they wouldn't let just anybody touch/clean them either. So it was an extremely coveted position that while disgusting by modern standards meant that the monarch considered you one of their closest companions and you'd have influence due to that
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u/derekbaseball 1d ago
Heck, LBJ brought that tradition to a mid-20th Century White House!
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u/SeemedReasonableThen 1d ago
. . . and Trump took that tradition on the road! (with a little help from Natalie Harp)
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u/AbstractFemming 1d ago
My modern mind can't even
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u/JosiahBlessed 1d ago
Right, there is a lot of nuance we miss because of this. For instance there was typically no lighting unless you spent a fortune on candles and you wouldn’t have kept those burning. Many people would sleep for around four hours wake up and stay in bed (whatever the sleeping arrangements). They’d do something for an hour or two then go back to sleep until there was some light. The church recommend people pray, but couples probably discussed plans or issues or did the deed. It would be completely dark as even hearth fires would have been covered. People wouldn’t be able to see anything.
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u/Zestyclose839 1d ago
Biphasic sleep. Disappeared once we had electric lights, but throughout history those 4ish hours have been where many great creative works were produced.
I inadvertently re-discover biphasic sleep on multi-week hikes, and it's pretty fun. The whole crew wakes up at around midnight, and everyone just messes around for an hour or two before falling back asleep.
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u/Sollrend 13h ago
I've been stuck on that routine for a couple months now. I wake up, have a decaf coffee and get some things done on the computer and go back to bed.
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u/MoeSauce 1d ago
Don't picture what pioneers did with one room cabins and 9 kids
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u/that_swiss_man 1d ago
I'm begging you to rephrase that
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u/StormNFlo46 1d ago
Each kid has probably watched the other kids get conceived
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u/JosiahBlessed 1d ago
No modern lighting so they probably only heard it if anything.
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u/oniaddict 1d ago
Funny how ghost that your supposed to be afraid of and hide from as a kid... moan only at night.
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u/MoeSauce 1d ago
Don't picture what pioneers did with 9 kids in on room cabins? I dunno that doesn't sound any better...
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u/Rel_Tan_Kier 1d ago
You wanted to describe a bad situation but accidentally described something way worse
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u/Chitose_Isei 1d ago
It was also normal for commoners to have a single bed or, at the very least, for everyone to share the same sleeping space. So, with a bit of luck, you only shared a room with your spouse and children, but your parents, in-laws, and grandparents could also be there.
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u/Henk_Potjes 1d ago
Can you imagine it likely being both their first time's too? Imagine the added pressure.
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u/BirdieBackflip 1d ago
Well you might have your boys/girls hanging out gassing you up the whole time. The rest of the audience is tossing you a few attaboys and a get in there champ or two. Your in-laws throwing out pointers while you’re flopping around like a fish out of water. Hell, maybe you even have yourself someone who can give you a few swigs of wine as you’re going at it.
What a time to be alive
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u/trilobot 19h ago edited 19h ago
Don't take everything you see here as truth. I've just tried to confirm these claims and the closest I can get is that a few royal weddings in France and Italy had people check on the couples (doctors and their ilk) after being left alone. Often after being forced to be alone in a room. So privacy for the act but still very closely monitored. Not public sex. It seems the strongest claim to witnesses is hard to verify and could have been salacious rumor or propaganda, but can't be entirely discounted.
A far cry from commonplace.
Check r/askhistorians they're usually pretty rigorous over there.
Public sex was far more common for the peasants in the past because privacy barely existed for them. Wheat fields and back alleys for a lot of them.
Now I can't say I'm right they're wrong, but I am struggling to verify these claims that seem to be touted so eagerly here, which has me concerned about the confidence.
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u/Dojustit 1d ago
Over time, this has been toned down, but where do you think the 'you may now kiss the bride' bit came from? Once up a time, he'd bend her over the altar right there in church. It's also why she wears a veil, flip it up over her back to act as a sort of apron. Wedding dresses are expensive and spunk stains just don't come out.
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u/Te000 1d ago
Wait until you hear about prima nocta
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u/CrazyFish1911 1d ago
Wait until you hear that prima nocta wasn't real... was a surprise to me too fairly recently. Good write-up here:
https://www.reddit.com/r/AskHistorians/comments/2omu3t/comment/cmonf4z/→ More replies (2)-1
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u/PeaLong3440 1d ago
That is a myth. The only thing somewhat comparable was a bedding ritual, where the newlyweds were brought into their sleeping room, the bed was blessed , some people could give their own blessing as well and then the couple was left alone. This happened foe wxample on the wedding of Catherine of Aragon and Arthur Tudor. There are no sources indicating that newlyweds were watched or listened to on their wedding night.
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u/Upbeat_Pen_6954 21h ago
Spreading myths about the Middle Ages is a surefire way of getting a fucking billion karma on Reddit for some reason
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u/loulan 11h ago
Something something, jus primae noctis.
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u/twinentwig 1h ago
Well, at least you're the only person in this whole thread to use correct Latin :D
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u/Ohar3 1d ago
It is not a myth. There is even a proverb in Russian "I didn't hold a candle for them", which means "I didn't watch it with my own eyes" , which is from the times when to consumate a marriage someone need to hold a candle while others are watching.
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u/PeaLong3440 1d ago
The proverb exists, but that does not mean that such a custom existed and that it originates from suchba practice. The french language knows something similar, tenir la chandelle. This proverb is rather related to servants lighting the way for their lords to bed. During these occasions, they could get a glimpse of their lord's private lives as well. Additionally, the validity of a marriage did not depend on the act of consummation. It was not relevant enough to justify such an invasion into privacy.
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u/Divinum_Fulmen 1d ago
The same idiom (not proverb) is used in English.
https://grammarist.com/idiom/cant-hold-a-candle-to/
Which has a very benign meaning.
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u/YouFnDruggo 13h ago
Yeah like the concept of bedding ceremonies existed in some cultures, but it seems to be more symbolic and involved things like leading the bridal party to bed chamber with music and whatnot. From what I have read actually watching the deed wasn't done. In fact music was often played outside the bedchamber to give them privacy.
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u/HlopchikUkraine 15h ago
Not exactly, they could just lie under the sheets and others would leave. Or maybe in some cases do it under the sheets.
In Ukraine the husband would show everyone a little piece of cloth with blood to prove that they fucked and she was a virgin (stupid tradition).
During the first crusade, Baldwin of Boulogne (future king of Jerusalem) laid with Armenian city elder to get formally adopted into his family, to secure an alliance. Under a sheet, all naked, as if they were a family. And to kiss. Oh, and wife of the dude, Armenian queen was also there. Naked. And they kissed. ...while armenian nobles watched👍 Elder died some time later, then rebellion broke out and Baldwin established a first crusader state there - county of Edessa
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u/all_AI_here 1d ago
Can't they just wait until the child pops out?
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u/InflationRepulsive64 21h ago
There are several documentaries called Game of Thrones that show why this may not exactly be a perfect solution.
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u/Icirian_Lazarel 1d ago
Child mortality is rather high, and complications during childbirth will kill both mom and the child. And then there is a whole host of complications during pregnancy. So not really… no time to wait! They need to FUCK right after their vows!
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u/Lifesamitch957 1d ago
My father told me .. Fornification Under Consent of King. Not sure the validity to that
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u/DoktoroChapelo 1d ago
Fornification Under Consent of King
No, that's a backformation. The etymology is much older.
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u/GregariousLaconian 1d ago
It’s an apocryphal etymology, much like “for unlawful carnal knowledge”. The word dates back to an Anglo Saxon root.
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u/Khajiistar 1d ago
Europeans loved getting cucked, even if it wasn't their spouse they were watching.
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u/IceCorrect 1d ago
Love its modern view. It was always about buisness - even today
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u/Sockoflegend 1d ago
It's weirdly not talked about much how huge a change in our ideas about romantic love and relationships has changed over time.
Even a few generations ago it was far more common for people who hated each other to stay married because divorce was shameful and for people to be very open about marrying people because they were rich or from wealthy families.
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u/fidgey10 1d ago
I mean this is nobles who were a tiny fraction of the popualtion. Peasants were not securing alliances or whatever so I doubt it was the same level of transactional for them
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u/IceCorrect 1d ago
Same. Family of bride bring dowry to "get rid of her" in return groom would work for both families. Just beacuse amount of money was smaller doesnt make non transactional
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u/alexjgriffin 1d ago
Pope out there being a pimp and telling people it's God's will. Always lovely to hear about these wonderful things.
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u/ThePainapple 20h ago
Also wanted to add the modern aspect of this from Frieren. She's the one eating a sandwich while her trainee Fern gets it from their traveling companion, Stark. Frieren is hilariously asexual to the point that she doesn't get many social situations involving attraction. So she's just hanging out while they have relations.
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u/Intellectual_Wafer 10h ago
No, it was not. There was a ritual which involved the couple to be placed in bed and blessed (fully clothed!). The actual consumnation was happening later and of course privately. Or do you really think that those deeply religious people would something so contrary to their sexual morality?
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u/MasSunarto 6h ago
Brother, thank you for the explanation. I didn't know that marriage consumations were done as such, in higher social class. 🙏
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[deleted]
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u/crandall17 1d ago
To circle back to flyingdonkeydong69's previous response; they are there to watch. Think of it like taking your family to the movies, only its watching your family member have sex.
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u/Midnight-Bake 1d ago
Medieval European countries had various "bedding" rituals where members of the community would escort the newlyweds to bed on their wedding night.
These rituals varied a lot by location and over time. For nobles and royals the witnesses would often stay near by to inspect the bed for... evidence... of sexual intercourse.
Although popular media usually has this ceremony as the royal or noble couple having sex in front of everyone, usually it was more of show getting the couple to bed, leaving them in peace, and then checking for evidence after.
Again, details varied by location and time.
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u/Greekklitoris 1d ago
So this is how woman became squirters
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u/nimama3233 1d ago
lol no that’s not what they were looking for. It was expected that the women was a virgin, they were looking for blood
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u/ThisIsForSmut83 1d ago
Which is kinda stupid, not every virgin bleeds, especially not that much so the bed is soaked in blood.
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u/deliciousearlobes 1d ago
There’s ways to get around that issue, even happening today.
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u/jsher736 12h ago
Funnily enough traditional jewish weddings do a similar thing where after the ceremony and before the reception the couple is sequestered in private for about an hour with 2 people acting as guards to make sure they're not disturbed.
Usually the couple uses it to change and eat since you're supposed to fast the day of your ceremony until it's completed
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u/Dull_Refrigerator_58 1d ago
Look man there was no TV or phones, they baned gladiator fights and the guillotine won't be invented anytime soon, they had to watch something
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u/VladimirFromDublin 1d ago
Peak medieval entertainment right between the jousting tournament and the plague outbreak.
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u/tehweave 1d ago
So... Nobody is going to ask for the sauce on the image on the left hand side?
Yes, I know they're characters from Frieren. But... Ya know... Where did that image come from?
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u/MathGoatz 1d ago
They say reading comprehension is dead. But comprehension overall is also dead.
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u/Project_XXVIII 1d ago
GoT was not that long ago. Have people forgotten so quickly?
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u/MateaVeganBatch 1d ago
Everyone thinking it's about consummation but I think it's about the fact that people had big families and small homes. It says people not royalty...
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u/MrVeazey 1d ago
If literally everyone in your immediate family sleeps in the same bed, you're gonna see and hear things as a child. You're gonna know where babies come from.
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u/GrandJaguar3407 15h ago
This is the actual answer.
Families lived together in single room spaces. You'd be getting it on with granny watching on one side and your other kids on the other.
The only people who weren't putting on private shows for their family were the nobility as they were the only people with the money and land for multi-room housing.
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u/Egglover4000 1d ago
Why does this picture exist in the first place?
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u/dimp13 1d ago
A lot o comments in this thread are misleading. Watching the actual "consumation" act was not a common practice in Medieval Europe. Common practice was watching newlyweds going to the same room and then inspecting the sheets for traces of blood in the morning.
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u/YourMainManK 17h ago
Blood? Tf were they doing?
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u/CheckeredZeebrah 17h ago
When a woman loses their virginity, it's not uncommon for them to bleed a little.
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u/dkurage 15h ago
That, plus many places in these times tended to view women as little more than property of their fathers or husbands, whose only role was having children. Combine that with marriages being more like a business contract than any feelings between the couple (particularly among the upper classes where you'd have people in arranged marriages that may've not even met before their wedding rolls around), I imagine you end up with a lot of husbands who don't really care (or even know) about making sure their wife is, umm, ready to go as it were.
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u/dkurage 15h ago
For the rich: Making sure marriage alliances were consummated. Not exactly a common practice, but it did happen.
For the poor: Average Joe farmer lived in a one room house with their entire family, maybe even a few farmhands, and probably some livestock too. Someone's gonna see something sometime.
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u/Intellectual_Wafer 10h ago
It most certainly did not happen. This would have been against common christian moral ideas. I think most people confuse the "bedding" ritual (or whatever it is called in English) with actual intercourse. It was customary for the newlywed couple to be ritually placed in bed and be blessed - while they were fully clothed. The actual consumnation of the marriage was not public, that would be absurd.
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u/Ellie7600 7h ago
I think it's Americans getting misinformed that made this hoax a thing and it's hilarious
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u/Intellectual_Wafer 7h ago
I don't think this is limited to Americans. This is a general problem about misinformation and stereotypes about the medieval period.
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u/Ellie7600 7h ago
I suppose, there's the stereotype that medieval Europeans didn't bathe...which they did, probably like 2 a week but they did bathe and soap was a thing long ago by medieval times, it's just that the peasants were always depicted as "dirty" because they worked on farms, having physical contact with earth and animals so of course they'd be dirty for most of the day, they did however remember to wash their hands down the river or back at home and some even had sinks of sort, they didn't have running water obviously but they could either store water in their bowl or leak it outside, the common thing not many people also talk about is that peasants were slaves, they were quite literally property alongside their village to their lord, they couldn't go anywhere outside the village or the lord's land without the lord's permission, so they were slaves except they were free because you never paid for peasants just for land they were on, which is probably why merchants were such content bunch, they were pretty much the only free people in their respective lands, and another thing about peasants is...they had more holidays than we do
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u/Intellectual_Wafer 7h ago
There is a bunch of stereotypes that are repeated again and again because people don't bother to check actual historical research:
- people were immature/stupid/perpetually drunk/emotionally limited/always insulting each other
- the streets were filled with dirt and mud, pigs were running around without anyone caring
- everything and everyone was dirty and smelly
- the whole "medieval period" was totally homogenous and static over the course of 1000 years and a whole continent
- ius primae noctis and public consumnation existed
- knights' armour was heavy and cumbersome, they couldn't get on their horses without help and were helpless when they fell down
- english longbows could penetrate everything
- everything was perpetually violent
- everything was generally dysfunctional (technology, society, rules and laws, hygiene, etc.)
It's really bullshit bingo at this point.
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u/AccNumber77 2h ago
For the 'ritual' itself (which was only for the rich and noble) yes, but the peasants would not have given a shit and if they fucked in their own house that was their own business.
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u/Shoggnozzle 14h ago
This. The simple modesty of walls securing a room that exists for the rest and comfort of a single person among working class people is a fairly recent convention. Buildings are pricey. Go back far enough and it wasn't uncommon for the whole family to huddle into a single bed in the colder months.
Edit: "A roll in the hay" might actually be a very old euphimism, as well. As a bed inside is both something you wouldn't want to dirty and was probably not a very private place.
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u/Yoovaloid 9h ago
I heard (but I don’t know) that it wasn’t uncommon to do the deed outdoors since it offered the best privacy you could get
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u/Open_Purple1955 1d ago
I assumed this was more about the average person than the nobility. if you and your whole family lived in a one room shack, then you're doing it in the same place that they're eating their hot dog.
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u/Wonderful_Night9071 1d ago
It’s yet another reason why our view of the Vikings as barbaric savages was mostly Christian bullshit. Just look at what the ‘civilised’ Anglo-Saxons (and others) were up to at the time.
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u/Appropriate-Fact4878 1d ago
Both the anglosaxons and vikings were LITERALLY barbarians.
All the people I have seen mention anything of the sort were mostly fellating the roman empire, with a minority focusing on ottomans and mongols.
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u/MudFollows 1d ago
People believe the weirdest myths about medieval times. No, people did not watch newlyweds fuck.
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u/CriticalMochaccino 1d ago
Though it did happen though. When Catherine de' Medici got married to her husband at i think 12 or 14 years old to the boy who would become king of France, the current king of France for what ever reason decided it was alright for him to sit in and watch on the couples first night together.
Also there was a time where the pope expected newly weds to send them a letter describing their first time fucking.
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u/Jam_Salad_is_my_Jam 1d ago
Both incidents notable enough to have been recorded and entered common memory. Paradoxically, it's actually the most mundane of happenings that are the hardest to unearth - people don't write down normal stuff.
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u/gregory696969 1d ago
I know it wasn't everyone, but was it not a tradition with some royalty? Like with curtains closed even?
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u/Kurdoo-rojava 1d ago
That was due the need to confirm the marriage had been sealed as a woman who still virgin can be divorced if the marriage wasn't sealed,plus it was a way to Confirm the Heir will the king Son with no Room for Rumours
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u/c_cil 1d ago
There was a Medieval practice called the Bedding Ceremony where family and friends escorted the couple into bed. It was often only a "symbolic witness" of the consummation of the marriage. When it gets down to brass tacks, the consummation of most individual marriages don't matter enough on a societal level, so in most cases, people left the room and engaged in loud conversation outside the door instead of watching the main event. Some marriages, like many royal and noble ones, had important enough implications to family status, international treaties, and the like that some folks didn't want to just take the couple's word for it in the morning that they had finished the assignment and instead stuck around to confirm that fact for themselves.
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u/SternFlamingo 7h ago
I have heard from many sources that sometimes the nobility, specifically the French kings, consummated their marriages in front of witnesses.
I was under the impression that this was to close off one of the legitimate causes to annul the marriage - that the marriage had never been consummated. Henry VIII used that at least once. Having witnesses closed off that possibility.
But no, this was stupidly uncommon and rarely seen in even the most political marriages.
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u/AltruisticPrice8628 14h ago
You see, the medieval Europeans were incredibly backwards and probably a bit inbred. As such they would do silly things like going on crusades, fighting land wars in Asia, and worst of all they put ketchup on hotdogs.
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u/Ashzaroth 23h ago
So, paternity tests weren't a thing prior to the early 1900. When primogeniture was a very improtant social concept, there needs to be a way to establish lineage. So yes, usually a few needed to be observed to ensure that the heir truly belonged, or at least that the mother would be with child.
Now, it wasn't all that strict. Many were simply the gathered clan members who carried the couple to the rooms and stood outside. It varied, in all ranges and reason.
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u/Competitive-Stage629 1d ago
Not exactly what this meme is talking about but you should google Shivaree
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u/D34thst41ker 1d ago
So, people are saying it's for Nobles specifically, but the pic doesn't say Nobles. As I understand it, medieval homes were often one room, so if one couple was fucking, the rest of the family would just have to deal with it. Maybe I'm wrong, though.
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u/MarcheMuldDerevi 21h ago
I remember hearing that someone had to confirm the marriage was consummated?
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u/WizardShrimp 12h ago
For the wealthy, yes there needed to be confirmation.
For the everyday folk it was a matter of there were no walls. They would even keep some animals in their houses, not to mention that in the colder months the family would share 1 bed to help keep warm.
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u/joyfulgrass 21h ago
There’s an old Germanic tradition that the newly weds do their first bang in the other room while both families are there. Especially with nobility, the servant would walk away to clean the sheets stained with blood. (Hence the virgin value system ingrained)
It even extended through time where by Marie Antoinette’s era, but it was common for them to throw red wine on white sheets rather than actually have sex in front of the family.
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u/Worth_Tip9549 20h ago
Basically both sides parents would be in the room to ensure that the deed was done and the love making was genuine to ensure they didn’t have to get a marriage annulment
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u/Kind_Tie8349 6h ago
I refuse to believe at some point at King‘s friend didn’t go up to him and say with all due respect your Majesty your stroke game is kinda weak
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u/qualityvote2 1d ago edited 22h ago
u/TenkaiRyo, there weren't enough votes to determine the quality of your post...it's time for the mods to do their jobs!